Free Will

[crodgers148]

I was wondering if I could possibly get some help (thoughts, specifics, etc.) on a thesis I am working on. The prompt in which I am writing a paper on (rather short, at 2-3 pages) is the following:
"Gandalf, Elrond, and Aragorn have all insisted that their followers undertake dangerous missions only of their own free will. They will not compel anyone. By contrast, Sauron and Saruman corrupt, break, or distort the free will of their followers.

Evaluate the importance of free will as a defining characteristic of free people. Use specific examples from the story to illustrate each point you make."

I would appreciate any help that you could give: but what I am looking for, mainly, is direct instances within the Return of the King. Thank you for your help and I can't wait to discuss your responses!

[Valandil]

Hello crodgers - and welcome to Entmoot.

You are probably best off finding those circumstances yourself. We at Entmoot are a friendly, helpful bunch. But we think everyone ought to write their own papers.

If you really want to discuss it - you go ahead and toss out the instances first, and we'll be happy to join in the discussion.

[Earniel]

The best way to find those instances you're looking for, is to read the book.

Best of luck and enjoy your reading!

[crodgers148]

Well, let me try to ignore the (not so) warm welcome... I indeed have read the Lord of the Rings - and after yesterday, a total of seven times - as well as The Silmarillion, the Letters (most of them), the Children of Hurin, and a couple other books surrounding the World of Tolkien - (I figured that we all knew the books, that is why I skipped the introduction of who I am and why I am here) so with that behind us...

My main points that I have come up with is the obvious fights/quarrels between Gandalf and Saruman, Aragorn and Sauron, and the mostly "random thought" that Gandalf allows each person (hobbit, elf, man, etc.) he comes into contact with the choice of how they live their life and the decisions that they make. My question to the Forum is, knowing the stories behind Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's own theology/beliefs, what are the most specific instances (specifically within the Lord of the Rings: RotK) that the issue of free will comes up, or where Tolkien really shows the epitome of free will vs slavery (i.e. Sauron and Saruman with the orcs, uruk-hai, etc.)

Thank you for all your help.

[Valandil]

If we misunderstood you - take a close look at your opening post. It reads like someone who hasn't read the book but has a writing assignment from it. We see the type from time to time around here.

What are some of the instances you think of though? Both on the 'free will' side of things, as well as converse examples from Sauron & Saruman...

[Rían]

Valandil is right - take a look at your opening post - it looks like just another "I have a paper due about LOTR - let's see, I'll find a forum and have them do the work!" We've had that happen enough times that we're a little wary, that's all. It would have helped immensely if you had put the info that is in your second post into your first post

And I agree with Val again - could you give us some of the instances that you are thinking of, so we know kind of what you're looking for? I'm currently in a re-read of LOTR myself, and happen to have just started RoTK two nights ago. BTW, why are you interested in mainly RoTK? That info would help, too. I think it would be cool to put in some instances from the Hurin story, too! That would impress your professor!

[inked]

Sam's reaction to the ring versus Frodo's vs Gollum's and each compared to the other two.

[Lotesse]

That's kind of mean, to gang up on the boy like that.

[crodgers148]

Well these are a few of the areas that I saw the whole battle between free will and slavery or just instances that the ideology of free will shines through in the Lord of the Rings:
-When Aragorn goes to the Dead Men of Dunharrow to fight for him in the battle at Minas Tirith (and Legolas and Gimli follow him, freely, because even Aragorn hesitates to letting them go at all, but they insist and choose to go)
-The inner battle between Smeagol and Gollum, could be allegorical to a conflict of free will and slavery (meaning Smeagol is being held by Gollum against his will; except for the fact, that it was Smeagol who brought this upon him - by his own free choice, so I have mixed feelings about that scenario per se).
-[I very much want an instance with Sauron vs Aragorn or Saruman vs Gandalf or something like that, so that I can dissect the two counteracting each side in a very detailed manner (due to the fact that I am buckled down by only having two - three pages to write on this topic; and let's be honest their are hundreds of books that discuss and try to figure out the concept of free will)].

So with these few examples could you guys help extrapolate and also possibly have some (wiser and more keen) insight to what I am looking for and if I am overlooking a very specific instance, much like I am looking for [morally good vs evil: in the sense of free will)].

Also, I have been pondering on the last part of this thesis: "free people", does that mean, in your opinion that a) that is all the free people of middle earth: i.e. hobbits, men, elves, etc. or b) the morally "good guys" as in those who are directly against Sauron and all that he endorses and represents.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by crodgers148

Also, I have been pondering on the last part of this thesis: "free people", does that mean, in your opinion that a) that is all the free people of middle earth: i.e. hobbits, men, elves, etc. or b) the morally "good guys" as in those who are directly against Sauron and all that he endorses and represents.

To me it looks like all free people of Middle-earth or elsewhere, but with your examples taken from Middle-earth (RotK specifically). Anyone who is free, whether he uses his freedom to fight against evil or not.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by crodgers148

I very much want an instance with Sauron vs Aragorn or Saruman vs Gandalf or something like that, so that I can dissect the two counteracting each side in a very detailed manner.

Have you considered how both sides raised or motivated their armies? I think you may find some useful contrasts there.

Also, I have been pondering on the last part of this thesis: "free people", does that mean, in your opinion that a) that is all the free people of middle earth: i.e. hobbits, men, elves, etc. or b) the morally "good guys" as in those who are directly against Sauron and all that he endorses and represents.

One could interpret 'the free people' as those who wish to remain unbound and unruled by Sauron, with leaders of their own choosing and/or tradition.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Morgoth, to a large extent, directly, his will upon their mind, exerted control upon the minds of the vast majority of his minions. This use/abuse of his power, was not just for agrandisement, but also because in the nihilistic state to which he had fallen, he found other's free will to be profoundly distastefull. Extering this power over the centuries of the War of the Great Jewels was the main factor it expending his (non renewable) creative energy/magic/power (whatever it was that the Ainur had less and less of as they spent it creating Arda) and thus reducing him to the point where the Valar and the Host of Valinor could more easily defeat and destroy him.

Sauron saw this process and created the One Ring and other Rings ofPower to help exert a more subtle control and influence that did not disipate his power.

[Valandil]

Now we're cooking with gas!

The way I see it, Tolkien was a person of faith. He makes Gandalf like that as well. Take a look at some of the observations Gandalf makes: that even the wise cannot see all ends, that the Enemy often unintentionally strives against himself, that there is a guiding hand at work - causing things to happen in a certain way.

I think the approach of a creature like Sauron is to control, control, control. He acts as though he CAN see all ends, and will exert himself to work those ends toward his will. But he is ultimately wrong. There will be things beyond his control, and they will be his undoing.

The approach of Gandalf is to allow, allow, allow. Even when he thinks he sees error, he is wise enough to know that the great Worker of things will ultimately work through even such things as that. His is an abiding faith, that all things will BE WORKED (not just 'work' - in and of themselves) to their proper end. And that along the way - each individual must work out their own portion of it all.

So a Gandalf would give all the best counsel he could give, would do all the best effort he could do - and then would be free to not own the results. He considers himself not responsible for the end result (Someone Else is), he considers himself only responsible for his own faithfulness.

Regarding others - he is to allow them to make their own choices. Yet he will also do his best to hold them to their proper behavior, and to keeping the promises they have made.

Even so are we people of faith today, when at our best. Though sometimes we may act (or seem to others to act), in a way which appears to control. But alas - we are only human ourselves and it's hard to fully live by faith.

[crodgers148]

Thank you very much, this is quite the conversation and it is really helpful coming from so many viewpoints. Do you all agree with me, in that it is possible to view an argument/thesis on this topic looking at Gandalf and Frodo vs (not versus, but you get the point) Saruman and Wormtongue. Because I think it might be interesting to see both of those sides especially in the instances where:
1) Gandalf tells Frodo what is going on and what could happen if he does/or does not act upon it (at the Shire and of the Ring of Power). He does not tell him to leave and to go destroy this ring, but Frodo takes Gandalf's wisdom and he feels compelled to do something to right this wrong.
2) On the contrary, Saruman uses Grima as a slave: to work at the seat of Theoden in Rohan, to accompany him in his tower at Orthanc (and to do whatever that is commanded of him), and ultimately when Saruman is allowed to leave Isengard, Grima (almost naturally, like without choice) follows him and is kicked around [literally], cursed at, and treated as a creature not worthy of living by Saruman.
3) Frodo, in a way, is serving Gandalf (or at least his wishes), in my opinion and after the journey is completed in RotK, Frodo and Gandalf accompany each other to the Undying Lands (i.e. past the Grey Havens) and they both live on together.
4) Wormtongue, after Saruman (i.e. Sharkey), has taken control over the Shire and is being kicked out by the Hobbits (Frodo, Sam, etc.), Frodo tells him he is free to leave Saruman's side and once again Grima is kicked and spoken cruelly of by his master until he has had enough and strikes him down. In pretty much the same breath, he is killed too, and this sort of goes to show the point of what the corruption of power ends up as (in Tolkien's beliefs, which mine is similar as well).
Whereas Frodo and Gandalf live on in eternal peace and prosperity (by free will); Grima and Saruman are murdered in their place of hostility and bondage.

Do these sound correct or can you think of more instances similar to these? Obviously this is just cutting quite slightly into this very vast topic, but just some beginning thoughts...

[Rían]

Originally Posted by crodgers148

3) Frodo, in a way, is serving Gandalf (or at least his wishes) ...

I think I would put it that Frodo and Gandalf are both serving good, and Frodo, in order to better serve that good at a time of great peril, voluntarily (and temporarily) puts himself under Gandalf's authority because he recognizes Gandalf's superior power and wisdom. IOW, Frodo is serving his goal, not Gandalf. If Gandalf "went bad", like Saruman, Frodo would remove himself out from under Gandalf's authority.

[Valandil]

Well, no more sign of crodgers. I guess the assignment is all complete and turned in - and he's done.

(first filleted I've felt good about using in a long while)

[The Gaffer]

Very good points about "allow" vs "control". Every time the characters succumb to desire for the latter, bad things happen (Boromir, Saruman, Denethor).

I think you are on a good track with Frodo taking on the Quest of his own free will. There are countless instances during the journey when this pays dividends.

Note also that free will implies a diversity of motives. e.g. Merry and Pippin go of their own free will, but it was mainly out of love of their friend, not some grandiose plan to save the world or Frodo's sense of self-sacrifice.

The (IMO) biggie that nobody's mentioned is that Bilbo gave up the ring of his own free will. Only Sam, who also went there and back again of his own free will, matched this achievement. In that sense, Sam is the "inheritor" of Bilbo's estate (literally and metaphorically).

I think that this started out "by accident", but JRRT gave it more and more significance as the story "grew in the telling".

[Rían]

Another aspect - how do the battles play into free will? At some point, groups start fighting, and it's just not practical to approach each person, before fighting them, and explain the situation, and ask them if they really want to fight or not. I'm talking about the bit where Sam sees the Oliphaunt (TTT, "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit") and wonders about the Southron warrior that got killed :

He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace..

I guess his free-will choice was to join up or not, but it's not that simple, if he has a family, for example, or if, as the text says, he had been told lies. Maybe one of the defining characteristics of evil is to try to have sway over others to do YOUR will; this just keeps going on and on, and more and more people are dragged into the mess, until it stops, for whatever reason. When do good people bond together and try to stop something? and, in effect, try to impose THEIR will on others (and those that have been dragged into it by them) who have done just that first? It's an age-old question.

Tolkien did make things a bit easier by making the orcs always evil (mentioned in "Letters", IIRC); it was always OK to kill an orc. Again, in TTT (sorry it's not from ROTK, but those examples are the ones that are coming up in my head) the humans that fought against Rohan and surrendered were given a free-will choice, but the Orcs were just killed without question (I suppose they wouldn't surrender, but anyway ...)

[crodgers148]

No no no! Not gone - only very busy with academics and reading the Bible (in the extra time I have that is not being used to study, eat, or sleep). “I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter, scraped over too much bread." It is true, at this time in my life. But I am excited for next week to spend many hours on Entmoot on this topic and others tat I still have unanswered questions and thoughts about!

[Valandil]

Agh! Don't get THAT stretched out!