Isildur's Curse

[Elemmírë]

How Isildur was able to curse the Kings of the Mountains in death so that they could not rest until their oath was fulfilled? In "of Beren and Luthien" in the Silm, it is written that "Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world..."

So how could Isildur?

[Valandil]

Just tossing out a guess... the Valar did not have the authority over the Children of Eru, for one. Also - I've wondered if the Stone of Erech had some special properties... I've even suggested once that it perhaps could have come from the Meneltarma.

In a broader sense though... it was a convenient story device for Tolkien to use. I don't think he was as concerned about ironing out all the 'rules' as he was with telling a good story.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The oath (no doubt a fearful one of great cosequence) appears to have had more power over their spirits when separated from their bodies than when their spirits were bound to base elemets of their bodies. I would guess that The curse was really more invoking the power of the oath than a seperate socerous action.

[Blackheart]

Yes, they were oathbreakers. It wasn't so much that Isildur cursed them, they cursed themselves.

Isildur or his heir had the power to release them, and thus the power to command them.

Kings of the Dunadain are pretty potent fellows, but the real power is the oath.

Just look what an oath did to the Noldor if you doubt it...

[Wayfarer]

"Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world..."

Correct. But something that is often passed over is the fact that at that point Isildur, as King in Exile of the Numenoreans, was also the High Priest of Illuvatar - who did have the power to prevent the spirits of men from departing.

It is quite likely that Isildur would have required any oath be sworn before Eru, and that Eru held them to that oath by keeping them in Middle Earth until Isildur or his Heir declared that the oath was fulfilled.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Correct. But something that is often passed over is the fact that at that point Isildur, as King in Exile of the Numenoreans, was also the High Priest of Illuvatar - who did have the power to prevent the spirits of men from departing.

Whoa...! I've never heard that one before! High Priest? What did I miss this time?

All the same, why would he have the power while a Vala would not?

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Correct. But something that is often passed over is the fact that at that point Isildur, as King in Exile of the Numenoreans, was also the High Priest of Illuvatar - who did have the power to prevent the spirits of men from departing.

Now how are you interpreting the fact that office of high priest of the NUMENOREANS (not the high priest of ARDA) , which was held by the kings until it was forfieted in the downfall, was passed on into exile after the loss of Meneltarma?

And even if THAT were so, how are you then deriving the idea that the high priest would have the power to stop a soul from leaving Arda?

If anyone has a claim to being the high priest of Eru on Arda, it would be Manwe. And he states quite plainly that he's not empowered to do that...

[Serenoli]

On the definition of an oath being something that requires a divine witness - I don't think Tolkien ever stuck to that. Someone has already mentioned the case of the oath of Feanor, where taking the name of Eru was an 'even'

Also to the point is Tolkien's own letters, where he mentions that he wanted his legendary world to be outside of the Christian world even if he himself was a staunch believer. I believe he said something on the lines of 'Myth and fairy-story must reflect and contain parts of moral and religious truth or error, but not explicitly as in the real world.' That's one of the reasons he has the Valar, who are gods in the sense of pre-Christian mythology, but have no place in the Christian world. To me, there is then no need to see medieval practices of taking oaths - in Tolkien's world, Eru's name really seems enough to condemn them from leaving Arda.

Valandil If the potency is due to the power of the Ring and a result of the previous worship and service in the name of Sauron - how would Aragorn have the power to undo such a curse, even if he held their oath fulfilled? Would it not then be Frodo, the Ring-bearer, who could undo it, or only the destruction of the Ring which could accomplish it?

[Valandil]

I think the greatest part of the undoing came from the response of the oath-breakers... keeping their oath on their second chance, even after so long. It took the right time, the right person to require it of them, and the right circumstances (another fight against Sauron). Aragorn spoke their release as Isildur's Heir, but only when they had met Isildur's conditions... in a sense.

[muddlewait]

Hello. New here. Very good discussions.

I'm not sure why there need be much resistance to the idea that the Ring, being an obvious immediate source of supernatural power rooted in cruelty, treachery, and domination, helped give Isildur's curse teeth just because he wasn't wearing it when the not-yet-Dead Men swore their oath. Spitefully cursing oathbreakers seems a very Ring-y thing to do, and, based on the text Alcuin quotes, messing with spirits was to some degree within Morgoth and Sauron's pervue, perhaps moreso because of the Dead Men's prior worship of Sauron.

Interestingly, Isildur worded his curse carefully enough to keep the bonds it created tied to himself and his line rather than the Ring, and while said phrasing didn't help him personally, it did, by giving his heirs rather than the Ring's current master ownership of the curse, inadvertently help undo the Ring's own evil. This kind of dynamic may actually help explain how Sauron retained so much of his power, and the "loyalty" of the Ringwraiths, after the loss of the Ring: many of the bonds Sauron created with it may have been similarly worded or otherwise designed to keep his slaves from being free of his influence even if he could no longer wield the Ring directly.

I would guess that, had the Ring been involved in the curse and were it somehow destroyed without the Dead Men first being freed, they would have been released (if perhaps slowly) from the curse after the fact, since what had been wrought with it would have then been undone.

Anyway, it seems to me that the Ring's power is perfectly suited to using a once-honorable, now-broken oath as a reason after the fact to cause centuries of suffering to an entire race, and it also seems like Tolkien's worldview would allow for such an action to eventually, in a roundabout way, contribute to the Ring's own destruction.

It's tolkens world... I gess it's the ring...

[Olmer]

At the time of the curse Isildur did not have a slightess idea about an existance of the Ring, and the ring was happily sitting on a finger of his rightfull owner - Sauron.

So, no. No evil ring was involved. Just ex-numenoreans themselves.
They were too reluctant to acknowledge that way back during happy days upon living in Numenor they, too, have learned some ways of sorcery from the very best friend and counsellor of their king, not just the cursed black numenoreans.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I do not recall that it is clear exactly when Isildur cursed them, and it might well have been after the victory, when he had the ring. Recall that his path did not approach the white mountains during the war. At the sudden outbreak, he was defending Minas Ithil, and when it was lost, he went down the Anduin and by sea to Arnor, while Anarion held Osgiliath. He then marched with the Host of the last alliance from near Amon Sul in Arnor, accross the Misty Mountains, and down the Anduin vallley to the Dagorlad, never comming near the White Mountains. I believe it most likely he applied the curse, after the war, during his sojuron in Gondor after the war.