Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > Lord of the Rings Books
FAQ Members List Calendar

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Prev Previous Post   Next Post Next
Old 02-21-2013, 10:39 AM   #13
Galin
Elven Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
Some descriptions according to Quendi And Eldar (1959-1960, noted as Q&E below). But see below where I think it's at least possible that Tolkien might have rejected certain ideas.

Avari in Beleriand (Q&E)

Quote:
Somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South. (...)

The Avari thus remained the chief examples of Moerbin. Any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar (it rarely happened) became a Calben; but the Avari in general remained secretive, hostile to the Eldar, and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods, or in caves. (...)

Such Avari as came into Beleriand were, as has been said, called Morben, or Mornedhel. (...)

Eol was a Mornedhel, and is said to have belonged to the Second Clan (whose representatives among the Eldar were the Ñoldor* [footnote by CJRT]


*It is curious that - as in the original text of Maeglin, where he was 'of the kin of Thingol' - in my father's very late work on the story Eol becomes again 'one of the Eldar' (p. 328), though consumed with hatred of the Ñoldor; whereas here he is a Mornedhel (one of the Avari), and moreover of the aboriginal Second Clan.'

Vale of Anduin (Q&E)

Quote:
The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar, who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Ñoldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Ñoldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance. (...)

For in contrast the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.

They had evidently continued to call themselves *kwendī, the People, regarding those who went away as deserters (...) The Avarin forms cited by the Loremasters were: kindi, cuind, hwenti, windan, kinn-lai, penni. The last is interesting as showing the change kw > p. This might be independent of the Common Telerin change; but it suggests that it had already occurred among the Lindar before the Separation. The form penni is cited as coming from the 'Wood-elven' speech of the Vale of Anduin, and these Elves were among the most friendly to the fugitives from Beleriand, and held themselves akin to the remnants of the Sindar.
So here the Lindarin, or Nelyarin Avari, appear to have merged with the Elves of the Anduin Vale, and even in Eriador. Above we have Eol being one of the Tatyarin Avari (the Second Clan), but this appears to have been rejected later. In Words, Phrases and Passages (without checking I think this section might have been written around the same time as Quendi and Eldar):

Quote:
'Avari would not, at this period, be found West of the Misty Mountains. In Eriador such Elves as remained, or were gathered under the protection of Elrond, were either Nandor, or else Sindar and Noldor...'
Although 'at this period' (Frodo's time I as I interpret the fuller passage) may leave the possibility open that some Avari had crossed over Eriador long ago to make it into Beleriand, and that some still survived in Eriador up until some point before the period of the Quest of the One Ring.


Avari in Beleriand according to Of Dwarves And Men (1968 or later)


Quote:
'It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.
Christopher Tolkien footnotes this statement to compare it to the earlier description in Quendi And Eldar. There is also the question of Avari in the Anduin Vale. In Of Dwarves And Men is found the classification of Elves by the Atani (not the same as the classifications made by the Elves themselves however):

High Elves: returned Noldor
Middle Elves: Sindar
Dark Elves: those who had never marched to the Western Shores and did not desire to see Aman.

According to this the 'Dark Elves' seem like the Avari to me, and it is noted that the Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Numenoreans, although unknown to the Atani until later days, as they were like the Sindar Teleri...

Quote:
'... but were laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains and established small realms on either side of the vales of Anduin. (of these Lorien and the realm of Thranduil in Mirkwood were later survivors in the Third Age).'
So the Silvan Elves are Middle Elves, as they are Teleri, not 'Dark Elves' according to Men at least. And that the Silvan Elves are Telerin in origin is repeated in other late notes, including Appendix A to The History of Galadriel And Celeborn, The Silvan Elves And Their Speech: here the Silvan Elves are...

Quote:
'... specifically declared to be descended from the Telerin Elves who remained in the Vale of Anduin.' [and they] '... hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people hardly to be distinguished from Avari.'

Unfinished Tales
But 'hardly to be distinguished' from Avari seemingly yet distinguishes them. Were they later joined by Avari in any case?


So from Q&E Avari ever having been in Beleriand seems rejected (as well as Eol being an Avar from the Second Clan). And whether or not they had been in Eriador seems a bit unclear in my opinion (so far), but at least there were seemingly none in Frodo's day. And whether or not any of the Avarin Penni, for example, ultimately merged with these Teleri in the Anduin Vale does not seem to be mentioned in later texts, that I recall so far anyway.

There may be more texts to help sort things out. Anyone? One could easily enough say that Quendi And Eldar is the more detailed account, and that other later texts about the Silvan Elves simply leave out this detail. This seems to be the opinion of the chart marker (or makers) here, but it remains at least possible, I think (again if nothing else surfaces that I've forgotten), that Tolkien maybe later abandoned the idea of any Avari here.

According to The Lord of the Rings the 'East-elves' of Mirkwood and Lorien (there said to not be Eldar, but yet the East-elves are not said to be Avari specifically) seemingly can sail West Over Sea, considering Nimrodel and other Silvan Elves for example.

Would a true Avarin Elf, a 'Refuser', desire this, even if allowed? But again, being able to sail, or desiring to anyway, may be true of the East-elves in general, while a more detailed conception possibly includes some Nelyarin Avari...

... or not

Last edited by Galin : 02-21-2013 at 11:10 AM.
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
 



Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why did the Nazgûl drop Merry in Bree? Alcuin Lord of the Rings Books 103 02-18-2009 07:36 PM
4th Age and beyond alhaQQ Middle Earth 28 11-01-2007 04:39 AM
Question: Timeline and the Full Moon Elfhelm Lord of the Rings Books 18 04-16-2002 11:16 AM
Mystery!!! Kyote Fields General Messages 38 03-18-2002 04:00 PM
Entmoot Timeline: September 1999-January 2000 and beyond bmilder Entmoot Archive 32 11-09-2000 05:55 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2019, The Tolkien Trail