Horcruxes - Page 5

jammi567 · 07-26-2006, 04:34 AM

But say that the tiara is the missing horcrux. it's very poorly protected, and so i would think be reletivly easy to distroy, along with the locket if it's the one at Grimmald Place, along the lines of the diary. But one thing puzzles me. Why would Tom Riddle/Voldemort put curses and such like to protect the ring, but not the diary, locket or tiara?

***azalea*** · 07-26-2006, 08:46 AM

Well, he did put major protections on the locket, didn't he? It's just that RAB took it, and since we assume it is Regulus Black, we assume that Regulus took it to Grimmauld Place and hid it among the family heirlooms there.
We don't know if he was able to destroy the horcrux within or not (ie, is the fact that it can't open an indicator that it was destroyed, or does it mean he was unable to destroy it before he died?). So both the ring and the locket were well protected, but were able to be accessed at great cost.

The diary was D'dore's example of how blase Tom had been about his horcrux, leading D'dore to theorize that it wasn't the only one. Voldie thought he had it well-guarded at the Malfoy house, and he had the plan to reopen the CoS, so that's why it wasn't a danger to those who handled it (except for Ginny).

But what was the likelihood that anyone was going to stab it with a basilisk tooth? It wasn't destroyed when Ginny tried to flush it (ie, pages waterlogged or ripped) -- Harry was still able to use it. I imagine it couldn't be burned or ripped to destroy it. We just don't know what protections he might have had on it, because Harry was able to destoy it via an unusual method.

You are right about the tiara, though. But remember, the ring was just hidden in the wreckage of the Gaunt house. I think he just wanted places that the things weren't likely to be messed with. We know that he chose places that meant something in terms of his wizardness -- the cave being the place where he used magic and tortured those muggle kids, the house of his wizard mother, then why not Hogwarts, the place of his connection to the wizarding world? He may have had a student hide it for him (child of a death eater or something).

Dumbledore reminds us that Voldie didn't think anyone knew he had any horcruxes, so he didn't think anyone would be looking for them. And when Harry puts two and two together and gets the locket, and if he finds it isn't destroyed, then it may indeed be difficult to destroy. Same with the tiara, or whatever the Ravenclaw or Gryffindor heirloom is. Finding isn't destroying. And Voldie might assume that if someone did find one of the heirlooms, that they, like he, would treasure it rather than want to destroy it.

There are other theories around on Mugglenet (like in that editorial you posted) that Ollivander's (making a new Priori-proof wand OR is it to find a horcrux wand?) and Fortescue's disappearances are linked to horcruxes in some way, and the deaths of Amelia Bones (perhaps having to do with the cup) and Emmeline Vance might be as well.

Speaking of the cup -- what other special place do you think Voldie hid it in? I doubt the orphanage. Not the Riddle house. I can't think of another magical place we've seen connected with Tom -- maybe someplace in Diagon Alley or Hogsmead? That's my best guess. Maybe a vault at Gringott's.

jammi567 · 07-26-2006, 09:04 AM

what if we haven't seen the last of the Chamber of Secrets...

And Regulus Black bugs me a lot. He died about six months after joining the death eaters, and we know he was only 18 when he died (thanks to the Black taprastry being published). How was he supposed to have known about Horcruxes, get to the lake, drink the potion, put the fake locket in, re-fill the potion, get out of there, get to Grimmald Place and finally not/distroy the locket.

Serenoli · 07-26-2006, 10:13 AM

That tiara theory is cool. Especially given the fact that Fleur is going to wear it at the marraige, and its one of the things Harry is definitely visiting. Goblin-made sounds expensive...

As for Regulus Black, your question is of course intriguing. Of course, the main thing is, how, in six months he could have found out about the horcruxes. the rest of it would take one night only, as displayed by Harry and Dumbledore's performance. However, he must have been a powerful wizard, and a very enduring one, to accomplish at 18 what cost Dumbledore so much, and even then, DD needed Harry throughout.

More importantly his character does not fit; weak and cowardly, says Sirius. How could he have got over his fear of Voldy, gone through all the cave's enchantments, and drunk the potion that must have almost driven him mad? Also that note expressed hate, so his motivation must be more than the 'horror at what he was being asked to do'. Somehow, RAB found out, and then something else happened to make him use the knowledge. Jammi, surely you must have come across more theories in your wanderings that explains it?

jammi567 · 07-26-2006, 10:26 AM

Funny you should say that, i have just the essay for you, that deals with this probomatic problem. It's a Red Hen essay, that i hope helps to explain a solution to the problem.

***azalea*** · 07-26-2006, 06:07 PM

I like the theory about the locket being replaced before being put in the basin.

But I don't think Harry is a horcrux.

jammi567 · 07-26-2006, 06:17 PM

no, i don't believe that either, because it would contradict the prothersy.

durinsbane2244 · 07-26-2006, 06:40 PM

i too doubt that harry is a horcrux. the only time it's been mentioned that living things can be horcruxes is in theories, nothing canon...for all we know, it's impossible.

jammi567 · 07-27-2006, 07:58 AM

but didn't dd say that putting it in a living thing that could think for itself was dangerous. so that sounds to me that it's possible.

Serenoli · 07-27-2006, 10:04 PM

Yes, Dumbledore definitely says Nagini is probably a horcrux, and she's living all right.

BTW, has anyone considered that maybe there are more than six horcruxes in total. It seems agreed (by Harry and Dumbledore at least) that Voldemort was about to make a sixth horcrux the night he went to Godric's Hollow, and when he failed, he did it much later when he killed Frank in the Riddle house. But supposing Harry to be a horcrux, accidentally created, then Voldy would not know he already had got his seven bits, and so, with the creation of Nagini an eight horcrux has been created.

Serenoli · 07-27-2006, 11:14 PM

Oh, what if it really is some other DE, older, more skilled, and who's mad at Voldy, but afraid to declare himself; who substitutes the locket, and then, as a way of ensuring Voldy doesn't track him, he frames young R.A.B. In fact, given the first line, "I know I'll probably be dead by the time you read this", it seems possible that it happens after Regulus' death; the mystery-guy figures its okay to ladle the blame on him, because Reggie has already tried to back out so Voldy will figure he's got enough motive. And, he adds that first line so Voldy doesn't wonder (much) why the horcrux seems to have been substitued by a dead DE.

Possibly very flawed theory, but its a possibility. What do you think?

BTW, that article is very good, only the write goes off into so many theories, I kept mixing up assumptions from different theories and got all mixed up. One thing is certain; of all the multitude, something must be correct, so he'll have a nice time going 'told you so' when Book 7 comes out.

jammi567 · 07-28-2006, 09:55 AM

we all will, at something or other.

tolkienfan · 07-28-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serenoli

Oh, what if it really is some other DE, older, more skilled, and who's mad at Voldy, but afraid to declare himself; who substitutes the locket, and then, as a way of ensuring Voldy doesn't track him, he frames young R.A.B. In fact, given the first line, "I know I'll probably be dead by the time you read this", it seems possible that it happens after Regulus' death; the mystery-guy figures its okay to ladle the blame on him, because Reggie has already tried to back out so Voldy will figure he's got enough motive. And, he adds that first line so Voldy doesn't wonder (much) why the horcrux seems to have been substitued by a dead DE.

Possibly very flawed theory, but its a possibility. What do you think?

I like it. I never thought of that, I think it's a good theory.

jammi567 · 07-28-2006, 02:40 PM

good theory, but do we know anybody who would do that.

Serenoli · 07-29-2006, 02:01 PM

possibly the flaw in my theory, hey? for jk says we know R.A.B. and that there wont be any significant new characters

the only one i can think of is snape, but if so, he's good, and he'd have told dumbledore all abt it, nd dey wud nevr have gone to the cave... maybe, maybe, it was karkaroff...

in which case, how will we ever be sure?

Of course, it could be anyone of the DE; we know of so many, really, and who knows what past grievances they have had? and if they were afraid to openly declare themselves when substituting the locket, they're likely to be putting up a good act of submission now, and pretending they're all loyal, cos they're too scared to otherwise... in which case, Harry will have an ally somewhere, possibly, who can help him find more horcruxes... would have to be a good Occlumens as well-

I mean, rowling did say we already know them all, but she never said we know why they would do what they did; could be any1 of them, they myt all have huge histories of resentment... haha

07-26-2006, 04:34 AM	#81
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	But say that the tiara is the missing horcrux. it's very poorly protected, and so i would think be reletivly easy to distroy, along with the locket if it's the one at Grimmald Place, along the lines of the diary. But one thing puzzles me. Why would Tom Riddle/Voldemort put curses and such like to protect the ring, but not the diary, locket or tiara? __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-26-2006, 09:04 AM	#83
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	what if we haven't seen the last of the Chamber of Secrets... And Regulus Black bugs me a lot. He died about six months after joining the death eaters, and we know he was only 18 when he died (thanks to the Black taprastry being published). How was he supposed to have known about Horcruxes, get to the lake, drink the potion, put the fake locket in, re-fill the potion, get out of there, get to Grimmald Place and finally not/distroy the locket. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-26-2006, 10:13 AM	#84
Serenoli Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ithilien Posts: 852	That tiara theory is cool. Especially given the fact that Fleur is going to wear it at the marraige, and its one of the things Harry is definitely visiting. Goblin-made sounds expensive... As for Regulus Black, your question is of course intriguing. Of course, the main thing is, how, in six months he could have found out about the horcruxes. the rest of it would take one night only, as displayed by Harry and Dumbledore's performance. However, he must have been a powerful wizard, and a very enduring one, to accomplish at 18 what cost Dumbledore so much, and even then, DD needed Harry throughout. More importantly his character does not fit; weak and cowardly, says Sirius. How could he have got over his fear of Voldy, gone through all the cave's enchantments, and drunk the potion that must have almost driven him mad? Also that note expressed hate, so his motivation must be more than the 'horror at what he was being asked to do'. Somehow, RAB found out, and then something else happened to make him use the knowledge. Jammi, surely you must have come across more theories in your wanderings that explains it? __________________ "I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world that truly makes living worthwhile?" Death thought about it. "Cats," he said eventually. "Cats are nice." -Terry Pratchett, Sourcery Join the Harry Potter discussion, click here

07-26-2006, 10:26 AM	#85
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	Funny you should say that, i have just the essay for you, that deals with this probomatic problem. It's a Red Hen essay, that i hope helps to explain a solution to the problem. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-26-2006, 06:17 PM	#87
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	no, i don't believe that either, because it would contradict the prothersy. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-26-2006, 08:46 AM	#82
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Well, he did put major protections on the locket, didn't he? It's just that RAB took it, and since we assume it is Regulus Black, we assume that Regulus took it to Grimmauld Place and hid it among the family heirlooms there. We don't know if he was able to destroy the horcrux within or not (ie, is the fact that it can't open an indicator that it was destroyed, or does it mean he was unable to destroy it before he died?). So both the ring and the locket were well protected, but were able to be accessed at great cost. The diary was D'dore's example of how blase Tom had been about his horcrux, leading D'dore to theorize that it wasn't the only one. Voldie thought he had it well-guarded at the Malfoy house, and he had the plan to reopen the CoS, so that's why it wasn't a danger to those who handled it (except for Ginny). But what was the likelihood that anyone was going to stab it with a basilisk tooth? It wasn't destroyed when Ginny tried to flush it (ie, pages waterlogged or ripped) -- Harry was still able to use it. I imagine it couldn't be burned or ripped to destroy it. We just don't know what protections he might have had on it, because Harry was able to destoy it via an unusual method. You are right about the tiara, though. But remember, the ring was just hidden in the wreckage of the Gaunt house. I think he just wanted places that the things weren't likely to be messed with. We know that he chose places that meant something in terms of his wizardness -- the cave being the place where he used magic and tortured those muggle kids, the house of his wizard mother, then why not Hogwarts, the place of his connection to the wizarding world? He may have had a student hide it for him (child of a death eater or something). Dumbledore reminds us that Voldie didn't think anyone knew he had any horcruxes, so he didn't think anyone would be looking for them. And when Harry puts two and two together and gets the locket, and if he finds it isn't destroyed, then it may indeed be difficult to destroy. Same with the tiara, or whatever the Ravenclaw or Gryffindor heirloom is. Finding isn't destroying. And Voldie might assume that if someone did find one of the heirlooms, that they, like he, would treasure it rather than want to destroy it. There are other theories around on Mugglenet (like in that editorial you posted) that Ollivander's (making a new Priori-proof wand OR is it to find a horcrux wand?) and Fortescue's disappearances are linked to horcruxes in some way, and the deaths of Amelia Bones (perhaps having to do with the cup) and Emmeline Vance might be as well. Speaking of the cup -- what other special place do you think Voldie hid it in? I doubt the orphanage. Not the Riddle house. I can't think of another magical place we've seen connected with Tom -- maybe someplace in Diagon Alley or Hogsmead? That's my best guess. Maybe a vault at Gringott's.

07-26-2006, 06:07 PM	#86
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I like the theory about the locket being replaced before being put in the basin. But I don't think Harry is a horcrux.

07-26-2006, 06:40 PM	#88
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	i too doubt that harry is a horcrux. the only time it's been mentioned that living things can be horcruxes is in theories, nothing canon...for all we know, it's impossible. __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

07-27-2006, 07:58 AM	#89
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	but didn't dd say that putting it in a living thing that could think for itself was dangerous. so that sounds to me that it's possible. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-27-2006, 10:04 PM	#90
Serenoli Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ithilien Posts: 852	Yes, Dumbledore definitely says Nagini is probably a horcrux, and she's living all right. BTW, has anyone considered that maybe there are more than six horcruxes in total. It seems agreed (by Harry and Dumbledore at least) that Voldemort was about to make a sixth horcrux the night he went to Godric's Hollow, and when he failed, he did it much later when he killed Frank in the Riddle house. But supposing Harry to be a horcrux, accidentally created, then Voldy would not know he already had got his seven bits, and so, with the creation of Nagini an eight horcrux has been created. __________________ "I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world that truly makes living worthwhile?" Death thought about it. "Cats," he said eventually. "Cats are nice." -Terry Pratchett, Sourcery Join the Harry Potter discussion, click here

07-27-2006, 11:14 PM	#91
Serenoli Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ithilien Posts: 852	Oh, what if it really is some other DE, older, more skilled, and who's mad at Voldy, but afraid to declare himself; who substitutes the locket, and then, as a way of ensuring Voldy doesn't track him, he frames young R.A.B. In fact, given the first line, "I know I'll probably be dead by the time you read this", it seems possible that it happens after Regulus' death; the mystery-guy figures its okay to ladle the blame on him, because Reggie has already tried to back out so Voldy will figure he's got enough motive. And, he adds that first line so Voldy doesn't wonder (much) why the horcrux seems to have been substitued by a dead DE. Possibly very flawed theory, but its a possibility. What do you think? BTW, that article is very good, only the write goes off into so many theories, I kept mixing up assumptions from different theories and got all mixed up. One thing is certain; of all the multitude, something must be correct, so he'll have a nice time going 'told you so' when Book 7 comes out. __________________ "I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world that truly makes living worthwhile?" Death thought about it. "Cats," he said eventually. "Cats are nice." -Terry Pratchett, Sourcery Join the Harry Potter discussion, click here

07-28-2006, 09:55 AM	#92
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	we all will, at something or other. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-28-2006, 02:40 PM	#94
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	good theory, but do we know anybody who would do that. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

07-29-2006, 02:01 PM	#95
Serenoli Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ithilien Posts: 852	possibly the flaw in my theory, hey? for jk says we know R.A.B. and that there wont be any significant new characters the only one i can think of is snape, but if so, he's good, and he'd have told dumbledore all abt it, nd dey wud nevr have gone to the cave... maybe, maybe, it was karkaroff... in which case, how will we ever be sure? Of course, it could be anyone of the DE; we know of so many, really, and who knows what past grievances they have had? and if they were afraid to openly declare themselves when substituting the locket, they're likely to be putting up a good act of submission now, and pretending they're all loyal, cos they're too scared to otherwise... in which case, Harry will have an ally somewhere, possibly, who can help him find more horcruxes... would have to be a good Occlumens as well- I mean, rowling did say we already know them all, but she never said we know why they would do what they did; could be any1 of them, they myt all have huge histories of resentment... haha __________________ "I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world that truly makes living worthwhile?" Death thought about it. "Cats," he said eventually. "Cats are nice." -Terry Pratchett, Sourcery Join the Harry Potter discussion, click here Last edited by Serenoli : 07-29-2006 at 02:16 PM.