Christian themes in Harry Potter?

[Nurvingiel]

Minielin's post in HP vs. LOTR made me wonder... are there any Christian themes in Harry Potter?

Originally Posted by Minielin

Well, setting aside the deeper themes of good vs. evil and Christian references, which don't ever happen in any other books, I'm sure.

Personally, the Harry Potter books have a distincly secular feel to me.

What do you guys think? Do you have any comments Minielin?

relevant article and website. Personally I think he's reading into it a liiiittle too much in this article.



EDIT: I did do a search, but I don't think the other threads that touch on this subjects are about this particular thought.

[Mercutio]

well there are all the references to alchemy (many of which overlap/= some Christian stuff such as redemption, purification, etc. (obiviously more specific than this short post)...let me dig up an article)

EDIT ~

what do ya know, it's by the same guy as those other articles (I read it in a Christian journal we get that is consistently...hmm...good? um--they don't make stuff up...some other decent adjectives )

The Alchemist’s Tale Harry Potter & the Alchemical Tradition in English Literature

this is the key (but the whole article really should be read)

Certainly, the similarity of this language to the Christian spiritual path is remarkable—and understandably so, because the symbols of the completion of the alchemical work are also traditional ciphers for Christ, the God/Man, in whose sinless two natures Christians are called to perfection in his Mystical Body, the Church.

It gave a huge load of evidence and all sorts of stuff explaining how ^

[inked]

Nurv,

to quote an infamous British git, " Ohhhh, yyeeeaaaahhhh! Baby!"

[Nurvingiel]

Erm... what's Sigaldry?

Anyway, I guess what it comes down to, is people will find what they are looking for in a book, whether it's devil worship or Christian themes.

I agree with you Mini, that there are not deeper themes than cultural ones that occur in many books. (Having good guys etc. isn't exactly unique to Christianity anyway. )

Originally Posted by inked

Nurv,

to quote an infamous British git, " Ohhhh, yyeeeaaaahhhh! Baby!"

Aaaaaa!!! *flees*

[inked]

Nurv,
Have you taken literary courses in college? Of course you have! Did you immediately see and understand everything in any book assigned in the course(s)? Did you ever go the library and see ALL the interpretive works on any given book so you could cobble together a paper on the meaning of a book?
Of course you did! I bet you even know of the industry devoted to those types of things, "Cliff's Notes".

If you think that no themes other than cultural ones (which explains much of the dearth of literature in this current time) are explicit in books, you may need to take remedial Literature courses . You know better !

Minielin,
"I think the Harry Potter books were written in a secular way. However, two points: first of all, JKR (like most authors) has good guys that behave in good ways which reflect the teachings of Christianity. Basic Christian themes occur in almost any book with a distinct hero of the traditional variety. They're not hard to find, although there is a definite distinction betwenn those and direct, pointedly Biblical references such as there are in The Chronicles of Narnia. Then secondly, think about the allegorical connection many people made between LotR and WWII, despite the fact that Tolkien, I believe, stated plainly that he did not write LotR in any way based on the events of WWII. Simply put, I think that while JKR did not deliberately write in Christian themes, they are present and identifiable (though I agree, some of that material is a bit of a stretch )."

Of course JKR stands in the British tradition of authorship and that means that for most of the past 1500 years expressed values have been Christian values. But the traditional heroes' good has been of similar sort since Socrates famous discussion of how persons act given a ring that confers invisibility and WHY they do so. There are therfore many parallels with philosophically good heroes. As Aragorn observed, good has not changed (though that point is often debated in these fora! ). One can force interpretations into non-existent allegories, which was what JRRT was protesting, but all applicability is not allegory, as JRRT INSISTED.

Simply put, I think the evidence that JKR did deliberately write in Christian themes is overwhelming. But one must know what the evidence is and then look for usage and then weigh the total. And, as a Tolkien fan, you are aware of the vast interpretive mileiu which can arise from any source (as say, Marxist or Buddhist evaluations) and which has delineable applicability, which is of vastly differing qualities.

If you wish to pursue this more in depth, I suggest you read either of the texts John Granger has written. They are much more than the website can suggest, and he is himself a classicist well-prepared to assess the usage of JKR of the entire Western philosophical corpus and Christianity. Additionally, there exists a philosophy series addressing this corpus and interactions which you might find interesting - I referenced it to Beren3000 in the currrently reading thread and a review from him should be possible too.

I would enjoy discussing this book by book in the HP series if any are interested.

Now, to assert the applicability and usage of Christian themes is not to deny the presence of others. Literature is not limited to either/or but is mostly both/and . And, since Christianity is a vast, interlocking rational system of understanding ourselves, the universe, and Everything, in addition to God-human relations, it makes sense that there are multiple points of contact with even divergent interpretations.

I think that Granger's assertion that JKR is writing as an Inkling (out of time) is eminently defensible - particularly with the comparison of HP with TCoN and LOTR. Shall we have a go?

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by inked

I would enjoy discussing this book by book in the HP series if any are interested.

Ooh, let's do... I'm very interested to hear your comments.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Erm... what's Sigaldry?

I believe it means "enchantment".

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Nurv,
Have you taken literary courses in college? Of course you have! Did you immediately see and understand everything in any book assigned in the course(s)? Did you ever go the library and see ALL the interpretive works on any given book so you could cobble together a paper on the meaning of a book?
Of course you did! I bet you even know of the industry devoted to those types of things, "Cliff's Notes".

If you think that no themes other than cultural ones (which explains much of the dearth of literature in this current time) are explicit in books, you may need to take remedial Literature courses . You know better !

I meant there are no themes other than cultural ones in Harry Potter.

As a matter of fact, my science degree, heavy on the science, had room for only one English course, so I chose an Essay Writing course. So as a matter of fact, I have not taken literary courses at a college level. It's not like I don't read though. There are Christian themes in, say, "The Chronicles of Narnia" or "Lord of the Flies", but not "Harry Potter".

And I also never used Cliff Notes (but I know what it is) so .

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Do you have any comments Minielin?

I think the Harry Potter books were written in a secular way. However, two points: first of all, JKR (like most authors) has good guys that behave in good ways which reflect the teachings of Christianity. Basic Christian themes occur in almost any book with a distinct hero of the traditional variety. They're not hard to find, although there is a definite distinction betwenn those and direct, pointedly Biblical references such as there are in The Chronicles of Narnia. Then secondly, think about the allegorical connection many people made between LotR and WWII, despite the fact that Tolkien, I believe, stated plainly that he did not write LotR in any way based on the events of WWII. Simply put, I think that while JKR did not deliberately write in Christian themes, they are present and identifiable (though I agree, some of that material is a bit of a stretch ).

[Wayfarer]

Hmm.

I wonder if Hogwarts has an annex that teaches Sigaldry?

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

I wonder if Hogwarts has an annex that teaches Sigaldry?

Hehe. In a way, of course, they do.

[Ragnarok]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Minielin's post in HP vs. LOTR made me wonder... are there any Christian themes in Harry Potter?



Personally, the Harry Potter books have a distincly secular feel to me.

What do you guys think? Do you have any comments Minielin?

relevant article and website. Personally I think he's reading into it a liiiittle too much in this article.



EDIT: I did do a search, but I don't think the other threads that touch on this subjects are about this particular thought.

I found it odd that witches/wizards celebrate Christmas and other Christian holidays i.e. Easter.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

I found it odd that witches/wizards celebrate Christmas and other Christian holidays i.e. Easter.

I don't remember an Easter one (correct me if I'm wrong) but it makes perfect sense that they celebrate Christmas, for two reasons.
1. They are not witches/wizards in the sense that they are Wiccan (and of a different religion). All Wiccans are called witches anyway, regardless of gender.
2. Even if this were the case, Christmas is a secular and cultural celebration with religious origins, as well as being a meaningful religious celebration of Jesus's birth.

[inked]

Yes, JKR is grounding her work in the general background of the English school system (an overarching symbol in itself) and so uses the typical calendrical divisions of the year. This doesn't seem to be a collegiate calendar however, as there are no references to Michaelmas or Trinity terms. Can anyone enlighten us on the standard English usages and holidays for students in ages 11 - 17/18 age groupings. Also, noted differences between Hogwarts (and Smeltings, for that matter) and the typical calendar?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Yes, JKR is grounding her work in the general background of the English school system (an overarching symbol in itself) and so uses the typical calendrical divisions of the year.

What do you mean by the overarching symbol of the English school system? Sounds interesting.

[inked]

Well, in general, the model of a school goes back in Western Civilization to Judaic roots, but it has many pre-WC models as well. Since HP is the product of WC and JKR's educational background and process (classicist and languages), we look at the first writings of Socrate's teachings and methods as recorded by the Academy and Plato - which for shorthand we refer to as the "school" of Socrates or Plato. There were the schools of Gamaliel (St. Paul's background) and others in Jesus' time.

What is common in these usages is the representation of all of life as a "school" in preparation for life on this planet and in the life to come. This is seen in the baseline assumptions of the various schools and how they play out in political and economic and relational situations (the Epicureans and the Stoics and the Platonists). In short, the various schools teach students about life, how it is to be lived, its successes and failures, and ultimate goals or lack of the same.

So, when JKR puts HP in a school literally, she is not only doing so as a setting for the story (with all its literary conventions and familiarities and usages) but TELLING US VERY PLAINLY AND IN LARGE LETTERS THAT HER MATERIALS ARE A SCHOOL also. But this is so obvious that we don't see the intellectual and moral and value components (or their origins and outworkings) for the realities they are. This is a particular fault of some of the radical Christian complaints from sources who have failed to see the "school" for the setting and asssociated props BUT it is equally a fault of the radical secularists who scream bloody murder at any value system save their own. Both groups engage in ridiculous assertions on minutiae rather than stand back and admit Hogwarts is a school for life and what comes after.

Re-read the very first chapters of HP&PS and you will see this laid out so boldly that it is breath-taking! We have the immediate opposition of the school of Dumbledore vs the school of Voldemort (and, I believe, the end prefigured in the beginning). The machinations are very much like those of Merlin to protect Arthur and PREPARE him for his future role.

And, though we may wish to debate the precision of the parallels, who else do you know of who has prophecies of advent and ineluctable vanquishings, signs in the heavens, and an internationally recognized holiday around natal events - not to mention attempted murder by a ruler with reduction to refugee status and "father" stand-in? who was raised in obscurity though with reports of interesting events in childhood? who begins life work after a heavenly accolade and water-event? Whose opposition is Dursley-ish in its wilful blindness and militantly destructive of a perceived threat?

Two schools in opposition from page 1.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by inked

This doesn't seem to be a collegiate calendar however, as there are no references to Michaelmas or Trinity terms. Can anyone enlighten us on the standard English usages and holidays for students in ages 11 - 17/18 age groupings. Also, noted differences between Hogwarts (and Smeltings, for that matter) and the typical calendar?

The English school year runs as follows:
September-December (autumn term)
Christmas holiday
January-Easter (spring or sometimes winter term)
Easter holiday
Easter-July (summer term)
Summer holiday

Hogwarts follows this pattern exactly, though schools don't always start on 1st September.

Public schools (that's private schools in the US) like Smeltings use roughly the same dates, but often have their own unique names for terms. For example, I have the school notices page of the newspaper in front of me, and the public schools are announcing the beginning of their Lent Term, Long Quarter, Hilary Term etc.

And by the way, wizards celebrate Easter. They eat Easter eggs (remember how Mrs Weasley sends Hermione a smaller one in GoF after the Rita Skeeter article?). I wouldn't read too much into this, though, since almost everyone i the UK celebrates Easter and Christmas, Christian or not.

[inked]

Sun-star,

Thank you for the info and the explanations.

Thus far in JKR's work I would agree that the Christmas and Easter festivities seem largely secular and time markers in the school calendar. But I reserve final judgment on their value to the septology until it is written and published in its entirety. For example, I think there may be larger associations that have yet to be underscored.

Do you find it interesting that JKR demarcates time in basically a Church Year set of cycles rather than purely "secular" terms (given of course that our calendar is in fact originated in the Roman Church/Gregorian calendar even in "secular terms)? ...random observation, I think, but I am not sure all is random in JKR's subcreation!

edit: Would it be possible to get a web address for the school notices paper you refer to? I should like to see the variants of the public schools nomenclature. And, I suspect it might be profitable to see what terms were used a t JKR's various schools, hmmm.... I may have to look into that.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Minielin's post in HP vs. LOTR made me wonder... are there any Christian themes in Harry Potter?



Personally, the Harry Potter books have a distincly secular feel to me.

What do you guys think? Do you have any comments Minielin?

relevant article and website. Personally I think he's reading into it a liiiittle too much in this article.



EDIT: I did do a search, but I don't think the other threads that touch on this subjects are about this particular thought.

Ah, Nurv, Nurv, Nurv! I finally get to say "I told you so!"

It does feel good, too!

and for your further reading pleasure: http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=196#more-196

[Lotesse]

O.K., told-ya-so smarmy pants guy, so, that means homosexuality is cool with Christians? Is being gay a Christian theme? I should hope so, if by your rationale J.K. Rowling meant for a christian theme in her Harry Potter novels, because she's just revealed that Dumbledore is gay, and has been in love with Grindelwald for years. "Falling in love can blind us to an extent," Rowling said of Dumbledore's feelings, adding that Dumbledore was "horribly, terribly let down."

Hmm. So, gay is a christian theme, now? AWESOME! Very cool.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...OvV-AD8SCM5HO2

Unless - I'm a bit confused, here - were you trying to say that the Harry Potter novels DID have a Christian theme, or did not? Sometimes your posts are confusing; having to sift through all the heavy-duty insulting sarcasm and multitude of biased blog-links, it can get to be quite a chore trying to figure out exactly just what point you might be wishing to make, Inked.

Rowling, finishing a brief "Open Book Tour" of the United States, her first tour here since 2000, also said that she regarded her Potter books as a "prolonged argument for tolerance" and urged her fans to "question authority."
Not everyone likes her work, Rowling said, likely referring to Christian groups that have alleged the books promote witchcraft. Her news about Dumbledore, she said, will give them one more reason.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...OvV-AD8SCM5HO2

[b.banner]

very dumb thing for her to say. After Deathly Hallows i hated Dumbledore, i mean i never really liked him from Sorcerers Stone but the Deathly Hallows really made me dislike him.