Christian themes in Harry Potter?

[inked]

Lief,

Re-iteration:

"I believe in God, not magic." In fact, Rowling initially was afraid that if people were aware of her Christian faith, she would give away too much of what's coming in the series. "If I talk too freely about that," she told a Canadian reporter, "I think the intelligent reader - whether ten or sixty - will be able to guess what is coming in the books."
FANTASIA:THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO C.S. LEWIS by Michael Nelson, published in THE AMERICAN PROSPECT, volume 13, number 4, 25 February 2002.

Addition: the narrowness of some people's perspective (denoted earlier by me as concretalist literalist) does not mean that they are not throwing the baby out with the bath water! Whilst one may construe all of life through that lens, most persons capable of true thought outgrow it by age 11 - 12. Some do not. This is true psychologically (Piaget's outline of intellectual rational development) and also true in the realm of the spirit and matters of the soul. This was one of Jesus' complaints of the stricter party who kept the letter (as was proper He noted) but ignored the spirit (paying tithes on mint and cumin is fine, Dudes, but declaring "Corban" the support of your parents in their old age is eternally tacky and damnable).

Paul's admonition re: whatsoever things are... bears repetition here, methinks.

Have you THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS to hand? I think CSL does a great job in the introduction about the Charybdis and Scylla 'twixt we must sail our barques on this great sea of life under guidance of our Great Captain! (Can you tell I've been reading Dante again?)

[Lief Erikson]

Well, your above post seems to me to be a reiteration of the stance you already have shown you have taken. No new arguments there, and neither is there a response to any of the three confrontational problems with the article that I earlier raised.

The fact that some Christians bring up about the story getting darker as it goes along bears little weight to me, because almost every drama gets darker toward the end, before the climax. Particularly dramas do this when they have a point to make. J.K. Rowlings' choices on that don't seem to me an evidence against what she's doing being good and fine. What bears more weight is the fact that for people brought up outside of Christian surroundings, this is going to be some of the primary education they get about magic. It's fun, pleasant, and full of a good spirit. People with a Christian upbringing, particularly a strong one, aren't nearly as likely to be tricked. We don't even have to see large numbers of people going over to witchcraft now. Besides, it wouldn't even be possible now. The books have only been coming out for a few years, so many of those that have been growing up with it haven't had a chance to make their own choices. Imagine someone of a nonChristian background now. He reads these books and loves them, and they are his only education about witchcraft. Here is my assertion: this is the case with a very significant number of people. Then he meets a real witch or wizard. Immediately the person's interest leaps up several notches. An identification is made between the good, healthy, technical magic in Harry Potter and the magic of the real world. If these books are the only education people are going to get about magic, then this is the connection they will naturally make. It naturally makes magic more appealing to those that don't have a stable Christian upbringing, or any understanding of what magic or witchcraft really is like. This is especially true since all of these groups involved in real magic have been promoting the book and affirming it.

Perhaps some of the parallels you have noted to Christianity were intentionally placed there. I have my doubts on that, simply because I have read so many other fantasy writers seem to accidentally put in things that could easily be taken in a Christian light. I will consider the possibility, though. From her interview, J.K. Rowling didn't sound quite so religious as I would expect from someone who puts the depth of theological thought into her work that you see. Note that she further didn't describe at all what her beliefs are. She mentioned going to church sometimes, which is an indication that her beliefs could very possibly be Christian related. She never mentioned the name of Jesus at all. She says she believes in God- she never said she believes in Jesus. Lots of nonChristians believe in God. From the article you brought up, it sounds to me as though her own theology is going to come out much more clearly in the last two books.

[Lief Erikson]

I just realized one more thing, as I was wandering off to bed. The prophecy in Book 5 of Harry Potter actually indicates he will survive the battle with Voldemort. No "death to save the world" is indicated in there. Rather, it says that Harry must be either murderer or victim. Perhaps he could be both murderer and victim, but that is not at all indicated in the prophecy.

You may very well be correct about Dumbledor dying, though. I expect you are right on that one. Either in this book or the next one, it is likely to be done as a device to up the tension.

[inked]

Lief,

The prophecy:
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... " PoA, Sybil Trelawney to Albus Dumbledore

No assurance of Harry's survival is given here. I think your reasoning is in error on that count.

A Tolkienian EUCATASTROPHE may incorporate death, specifically Harry's death. That is highly likely, but remains to be seen.

As obvious as Narnia seems to you and me, and hence, the backwards reading of Lewis' space trilogy, in its time it was not so. Lewis noted that:
"You will be both grieved and amused to hear that out of 60 reviews only 2 showed any knowledge that my idea of the fall of the Bent One <Out of the Silent Planet> was anything but a private invention of my own. But if there only was someone with a richer talent and more leisure I think that this great ignorance might be a help to the evangelisation of England; any amount of theology can now be smuggled into people's minds under cover of romance without their knowing it." ( LETTERS OF CS LEWIS page 167 to Sister Penelope ) So your complaints regarding specificity of identification are not new. The obvious may be missed! In fact, once was! And, in the case of Lewis, his later close identification with apologetics was a factor in his career at Oxford. He was not considered sufficiently scholarly and was considered too unabashedly Christian! Which I note merely to make the point that in works in progress by authors of real talent and ability and learning, all of which JK Rowling has, readers may not make "connection" at once; or only few may so do. In the end, the connection may be made unmistakeable.

I think that beginning shall be made clear in the end, but I hold that the beginning has foretold the end.

Which specific complaints have you made that I have not sufficiently answered to your satisfaction? And what of the questions in my last?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by inked

Lief,

The prophecy:
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... " PoA, Sybil Trelawney to Albus Dumbledore

No assurance of Harry's survival is given here. I think your reasoning is in error on that count.

Not assurance, but in my opinion there is indication. The phrase, "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives," suggests that one will live when it says that for one to live, one must die. It is possible that both will die, I grant you. That is nowhere suggested in the prophecy, but it is possible. The prophecy to me suggests that one will live because it points out that the only way for one to live is for the other to die. If that makes any sense .

Originally Posted by inked

Which specific complaints have you made that I have not sufficiently answered to your satisfaction?

Post 82. Though I don't like to think of those arguments as complaints .

I understand your point of view regarding Harry Potter. My proposed scenario in the second to last paragraph of post 82 regarding the non-Christian who knows nothing of magic except Harry Potter sums up my fears, I suppose.

A popular fantasy book is a powerful pulpit from which anyone can talk. I agree with C.S. Lewis about that, very much indeed. One can smuggle in Christianity- or garbage. Not that Harry Potter is garbage, of course. I've encountered some real garbage in fantasy writing, but that isn't part of it. I greatly, greatly enjoy reading the Harry Potter books, actually . Believe it or not . I just also think that they're being used by Satan to destroy some people that lack knowledge.

Originally Posted by inked

Have you THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS to hand? I think CSL does a great job in the introduction about the Charybdis and Scylla 'twixt we must sail our barques on this great sea of life under guidance of our Great Captain! (Can you tell I've been reading Dante again?)

I haven't read "The Divine Comedy", and it's been a long time since I read "The Screwtape Letters." :/ I'm engaging now in some new books I got for Easter, spiritual ones that I'm greatly enjoying.

[inked]

Lief,

JKR has addressed those issues in interviews which you may access via the
hp-lexicon.org if you would like. Specifically she addresses the fact that her spells are literary only and not related to attempts to do "magic".

The latter is an important point. The types of magic in literature can be generally classed as either invocational or incantational. The former are harmonized with nature (as the magic in Narnia, except for the White Witch and her successor manifestations, particularly Jadis) as opposed to incantational which attempts arbitrary control of nature. John Granger has an excellent discussion of the difference in THE HIDDEN KEY TO HARRY POTTER and in his LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER. You might check out his essays on related ideas at www.hogwartsprofessor.com if you would like.

Recall the convention in Arthurian legend of white magic versus black magic. And its near-standardization in English literary usage. What we have in HP is white magic in a societal state which is opposing black magic. Just as in the Muggle world, the wizards are posited in a world of choice. They each must determine on which side they will align. Remember in The Last Battle in Narnia there is such a choice in Aslan's How? Analogously, Voldemort would be the old hag offering to conjure the Witch. He is parasitical just as the Witch. And I think it will turn out that he is very like Jadis - his origin/ancestry, I mean.

I do not think myself that anyone can be drawn into magical mischief of the sort decried by some Christians. I think JKR has made very clear the difference between Voldemort's sort of "magic" and the magic of becoming who you have been born to be by choice (remember my contention that HP is Everyman, like a morality play).

However, I do acknowledge that some persons choose to be like Voldemort in real life - totally self-centred. Those folks will find any "magic" to hand to do what they will. Technology is often quicker and easier of course. But they would play Faust given the chance! And those folks will find a way totally apart from literature.

What I want to distinguish here is the valid usage of a literary genre to teach right thinking and action which is incidentally "magic" but not magic of the kind ascribed by some Christian critics. JKR makes those distinctions very clear. I'll attempt to locate a pertinent quotation to add.

edit: see http://www.madamscoop.org/themes/therules.htm
"JKR: "Most of the spells are invented, but some of them have a basis in what people used to believe worked. We owe a lot of our scientific knowledge to the alchemists!" But, most people do not grasp that alchemy was primarily a spiritual discipline and not the grubby base metal changers of common legend.
Isaac Newton was an alchemist, among other notables. But see Granger's website and the essay on alchemical structure in English literature.

I was waxing dantesque with complaint ( as in charge or allegation) - not 21st century colloquial!

[Rían]

Inky - I put my response to the article you linked to in the HP and the OOTP thread in this thread because I thought it was more appropriate.

I see what that article is saying, inky, but for me those things just aren't there, except in the same way that they're there in regular life. (Does anyone else think of the movie "The Great Race" and Peter Faulk when they say "they're there"? Except he said it, "Der der!") When I read Narnia and LOTR, I'm still moved to tears, even tho I've read them many times, and more importantly, I'm somehow ... I don't know, I guess stirred and inspired to do great and loving things (Gandalf did his job well - are you aware of the charge he had when entering Middle Earth?). I just don't have this feeling of, almost, ennoblement when I read HP. They're just fun, interesting, gripping, sometimes moving, and a very accurate description of life at a school and in general. I don't feel driven to re-read them as I feel with Narnia and LOTR. I just enjoy them very much (I was up until 3 am one night finishing one off!) and see no special underlying Christian themes in them. (see, IRex, I don't see "Christianity" everywhere! )

[inked]

Aww, Rian, you are just trying to impress IR!

That is certainly a valid response to the books, Rian. Narnia and LOTR can certainly be read that way as well.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

Aww, Rian, you are just trying to impress IR!

Nah, I'm already irredeemable in his opinion, I imagine!

That is certainly a valid response to the books, Rian. Narnia and LOTR can certainly be read that way as well.

I'm not talking of how I was trying to read them. I was just saying that for me, that was my gut level response, and it was very different from my gut level response to LOTR and Narnia. I just realized that last week, and I found it very interesting.

But different things speak to different people in different ways. Part of what makes us interesting!

[inked]

*bump*
For reference purposes

[durinsbane2244]

alrighty, alrighty, i just got here so forgive me if this has been said, also for going completely away from what is being said and discussed by you guys, (or was), but how about fawkes the pheonix with the whole "ashes to ashes, dust to dust"?

[inked]

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

alrighty, alrighty, i just got here so forgive me if this has been said, also for going completely away from what is being said and discussed by you guys, (or was), but how about fawkes the pheonix with the whole "ashes to ashes, dust to dust"?

Try #47 on in this thread, DB2244. I have a rather extensive discussion there. But I'll be happy to try to answer any specific questions you have after you read these.

[Beorndog]

Would anyone wish to comment on the fact that wizards/witches (Harry at least) have Godparents?

[inked]

Well, I think it a clue, particularly when you recall that Harry's do teach incredibly valuable lessons despite their obvious failings in some areas. And it certainly establishes a certain milieu for the saga which I have been earnestly drawing attention to in the face of opposition!

[sun-star]

How have the events of HBP advanced the Christian themes of the series?

[inked]

Sun-star,

See here for a lengthy but not complete answer to your question:

http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/hom...71e7d2b3972bae

Let me know what you think!

[sun-star]

Interesting, as always I certainly agree with him about the intended interpretation of Horcruxes (re: the importance of the soul) and Dumbledore's sacrficial death; IMO the symbolism in the cave scene is impossible to ignore. I'm not so sure, however, about Granger's view on how alchemy explains the romantic relationships in the book - I suspect this element was planned for different reasons than to create a 'quarrelling couple' in Ron and Hermione!

[inked]

Ah, the resurrection stone works on the 'Moot. Now that Deathly Hallows is out and read, this thread is going to rev up! Right?

I contend that I was totally vindicated in my contention that JKR is a Christian author in the Inkling tradition contextualized for our time. Do I get a pass now that the series is completed.

Actually, I think I should get a N.E.W.T. with Exceeds Expectations, but maybe I'm just being modest. It might oughta' should be and award for Exceptional Services to the School!

[sun-star]

So, Harry dies a sacrificial death but ultimately survives. I feel vindicated too

On a related matter, I loved the use of Biblical quotations on the gravestones at Godric's Hollow - understated, but very powerful.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

People with no original ideas often seem to be using Christian themes.

I know, I'm bad, but I had a stick and had to do some poking.