Christian themes in Harry Potter?

[inked]

Originally Posted by Minielin

Fawkes can absolutely in my opinion be considered a Christ symbol. There is evidence that points to this interpretation of his character that essentially includes almost every mention of him in the books. As I've said, there is no doubt that Christian themes may be drawn from Harry Potter; my question lies rather in whether JRK specifically intended to write them as such.

When an author writes a series of books (5 to date) in which the actions of a specific character or entity are consistent throughout, one can confidently assert that the intention of the author is clear. Further, the use of clear symbol in tradition and the concordance of that symbol with the author's uses are the clearest evidence of intent. The care and execution of symbols in such is clearly intended to convey the meaning of the symbol within the received traditions of the literary and historical world(s) constructed.

JKR clearly sets HP et alia in the Western Civilization construct, inheritors of that civilization's symbols and legendaria, as well as the religious and sociological constructs. We may rest assured that in JKR's use of the symbols of medieviality and symbolic imagery we have a classicist who knows her material and utilizes it as she intends.

More later on the phoenix and Fawks in particular.

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by inked

When an author writes a series of books (5 to date) in which the actions of a specific character or entity are consistent throughout, one can confidently assert that the intention of the author is clear. Further, the use of clear symbol in tradition and the concordance of that symbol with the author's uses are the clearest evidence of intent. The care and execution of symbols in such is clearly intended to convey the meaning of the symbol within the received traditions of the literary and historical world(s) constructed.

Yes, but JKR could have been simply using a phoenix as just that: a phoenix, a creature that dies and is reborn (giving it practical uses such as saving the lives of others). The fact that it can be interpreted in a Christian way doesn't necessarily mean she intended it in a Christian way.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Minielin

Yes, but JKR could have been simply using a phoenix as just that: a phoenix, a creature that dies and is reborn (giving it practical uses such as saving the lives of others). The fact that it can be interpreted in a Christian way doesn't necessarily mean she intended it in a Christian way.

amen

[inked]

well, then, what would constitute proof of intent, in your minds, Minielin and brownjenkins?

[inked]

*knock, knock* "Hullo!"

[Ragnarok]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Minielin's post in HP vs. LOTR made me wonder... are there any Christian themes in Harry Potter?



Personally, the Harry Potter books have a distincly secular feel to me.

What do you guys think? Do you have any comments Minielin?

relevant article and website. Personally I think he's reading into it a liiiittle too much in this article.



EDIT: I did do a search, but I don't think the other threads that touch on this subjects are about this particular thought.

I found it odd that witches/wizards celebrate Christmas and other Christian holidays i.e. Easter.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

I found it odd that witches/wizards celebrate Christmas and other Christian holidays i.e. Easter.

I don't remember an Easter one (correct me if I'm wrong) but it makes perfect sense that they celebrate Christmas, for two reasons.
1. They are not witches/wizards in the sense that they are Wiccan (and of a different religion). All Wiccans are called witches anyway, regardless of gender.
2. Even if this were the case, Christmas is a secular and cultural celebration with religious origins, as well as being a meaningful religious celebration of Jesus's birth.

[inked]

Yes, JKR is grounding her work in the general background of the English school system (an overarching symbol in itself) and so uses the typical calendrical divisions of the year. This doesn't seem to be a collegiate calendar however, as there are no references to Michaelmas or Trinity terms. Can anyone enlighten us on the standard English usages and holidays for students in ages 11 - 17/18 age groupings. Also, noted differences between Hogwarts (and Smeltings, for that matter) and the typical calendar?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Yes, JKR is grounding her work in the general background of the English school system (an overarching symbol in itself) and so uses the typical calendrical divisions of the year.

What do you mean by the overarching symbol of the English school system? Sounds interesting.

[inked]

Well, in general, the model of a school goes back in Western Civilization to Judaic roots, but it has many pre-WC models as well. Since HP is the product of WC and JKR's educational background and process (classicist and languages), we look at the first writings of Socrate's teachings and methods as recorded by the Academy and Plato - which for shorthand we refer to as the "school" of Socrates or Plato. There were the schools of Gamaliel (St. Paul's background) and others in Jesus' time.

What is common in these usages is the representation of all of life as a "school" in preparation for life on this planet and in the life to come. This is seen in the baseline assumptions of the various schools and how they play out in political and economic and relational situations (the Epicureans and the Stoics and the Platonists). In short, the various schools teach students about life, how it is to be lived, its successes and failures, and ultimate goals or lack of the same.

So, when JKR puts HP in a school literally, she is not only doing so as a setting for the story (with all its literary conventions and familiarities and usages) but TELLING US VERY PLAINLY AND IN LARGE LETTERS THAT HER MATERIALS ARE A SCHOOL also. But this is so obvious that we don't see the intellectual and moral and value components (or their origins and outworkings) for the realities they are. This is a particular fault of some of the radical Christian complaints from sources who have failed to see the "school" for the setting and asssociated props BUT it is equally a fault of the radical secularists who scream bloody murder at any value system save their own. Both groups engage in ridiculous assertions on minutiae rather than stand back and admit Hogwarts is a school for life and what comes after.

Re-read the very first chapters of HP&PS and you will see this laid out so boldly that it is breath-taking! We have the immediate opposition of the school of Dumbledore vs the school of Voldemort (and, I believe, the end prefigured in the beginning). The machinations are very much like those of Merlin to protect Arthur and PREPARE him for his future role.

And, though we may wish to debate the precision of the parallels, who else do you know of who has prophecies of advent and ineluctable vanquishings, signs in the heavens, and an internationally recognized holiday around natal events - not to mention attempted murder by a ruler with reduction to refugee status and "father" stand-in? who was raised in obscurity though with reports of interesting events in childhood? who begins life work after a heavenly accolade and water-event? Whose opposition is Dursley-ish in its wilful blindness and militantly destructive of a perceived threat?

Two schools in opposition from page 1.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by inked

This doesn't seem to be a collegiate calendar however, as there are no references to Michaelmas or Trinity terms. Can anyone enlighten us on the standard English usages and holidays for students in ages 11 - 17/18 age groupings. Also, noted differences between Hogwarts (and Smeltings, for that matter) and the typical calendar?

The English school year runs as follows:
September-December (autumn term)
Christmas holiday
January-Easter (spring or sometimes winter term)
Easter holiday
Easter-July (summer term)
Summer holiday

Hogwarts follows this pattern exactly, though schools don't always start on 1st September.

Public schools (that's private schools in the US) like Smeltings use roughly the same dates, but often have their own unique names for terms. For example, I have the school notices page of the newspaper in front of me, and the public schools are announcing the beginning of their Lent Term, Long Quarter, Hilary Term etc.

And by the way, wizards celebrate Easter. They eat Easter eggs (remember how Mrs Weasley sends Hermione a smaller one in GoF after the Rita Skeeter article?). I wouldn't read too much into this, though, since almost everyone i the UK celebrates Easter and Christmas, Christian or not.

[inked]

Sun-star,

Thank you for the info and the explanations.

Thus far in JKR's work I would agree that the Christmas and Easter festivities seem largely secular and time markers in the school calendar. But I reserve final judgment on their value to the septology until it is written and published in its entirety. For example, I think there may be larger associations that have yet to be underscored.

Do you find it interesting that JKR demarcates time in basically a Church Year set of cycles rather than purely "secular" terms (given of course that our calendar is in fact originated in the Roman Church/Gregorian calendar even in "secular terms)? ...random observation, I think, but I am not sure all is random in JKR's subcreation!

edit: Would it be possible to get a web address for the school notices paper you refer to? I should like to see the variants of the public schools nomenclature. And, I suspect it might be profitable to see what terms were used a t JKR's various schools, hmmm.... I may have to look into that.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by inked

edit: Would it be possible to get a web address for the school notices paper you refer to? I should like to see the variants of the public schools nomenclature. And, I suspect it might be profitable to see what terms were used a t JKR's various schools, hmmm.... I may have to look into that.

I can't find a link... They just put them in with the notices of births, deaths and marriages on the announcements page, and the newspaper doesn't seem to include this on their website. Google any public school name you can think of (Eton, Charterhouse, Rugby for starters) and they'll have some information.

About JKR's schools - do you mean the schools she herself attended? Because I think she just went to ordinary state schools, not any public school.

[inked]

Sun-star,
Thanks for giving it the old college try. I'll check your suggestions for options too. Yes, I did mean which schools she had attended.

Did you note the second paragraph's question re: Church Year vs secular?

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by inked

Did you note the second paragraph's question re: Church Year vs secular?

"Do I find it interesting?" Yes, I do. I can't really imagine what the alternative would be like.

I'm looking forward to your thoughts on Fawkes, when you get round to sharing them

On a slightly different tack: I thought the conversation between Harry and Luna at the end of OotP about life beyond the veil was the most explicitly Christian moment in the series so far. The veil is obviously a traditional symbol for death, and Luna's assertion that "you heard them, just behind the veil... they were just lurking out of sight, that's all", together with what Nearly-Headless Nick says about ghosts and "going on" in the same chapter... it all seems quite Christian to me.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

well, then, what would constitute proof of intent, in your minds, Minielin and brownjenkins?

missed this one

maybe a direct statement from JKR saying that her entire series is mythological christian allegory... i'm not too keen on reading motivation into authors unless they come right out an say it... some people just write what they think sounds good

[inked]

brownjenkins,

I'll see what I can do . But I really must protest against allegory. You do know the difference between allegory and applicability a la Tokien, I assume.
Also, for clarification, THE PILGRIM'S PROGRESS by Bunyan and THE PILGRIM'S REGRESS by CS Lewis are allegories which set up one to one correspondences with ideas, concepts and principles. I think I am safe in saying that Middle Earth, nor Narnia, nor HP fall into that category for either of us, am I not?

There is another mode of representation in literature known as symbolist of which I am sure you are aware. It utilizes relevant concepts, ideas, and themes in a mode to represent these but the correspondences are not allegorical. They can be multiple, serial, and stacked, among other modes, to convey ideas. Lewis and Tolkien and Charles Williams utilize this technique quite well.

Then, using Dante's Commedia for an illustration, and in his own description of proper reading of his work we have the multiple level operating concurrently: literal, symbolic, allegorical, and analogical (or anagogical).

Finally let me quote Madeleine L'Engle in her introduction to Dorothy L. Sayers' THE MIND OF THE MAKER, "The reality of fantasy is not that of fact, but of vision. One might mention Dante's DIVINE COMEDY, C.S. Lewis' OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET, or George MacDonald's PHANTASTES." Ms L'Engle does this distinction in contrast to the use of DLS's use of the word fantasy to suggest confusion of fact with dream or personality disorder in the text cited (which I highly recommend, btw). Ms L'Engle affirms that "The word, as words do, has changed its meaning, and is no longer a confusion of fact with dream (often nightmare), but is the Creative Imagination she affirms."

Works of this nature employ all of the above techniques and bear the above interpretations in greater or lesser degrees. I, an afficianado with decades of experience in the genre, have no doubt whatsoever in adding JK Rowling to the illustrious author to whom this site bears homage, but also to his fellow Inklings, Ms Sayers and, indeed, Dante.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

Works of this nature employ all of the above techniques and bear the above interpretations in greater or lesser degrees. I, an afficianado with decades of experience in the genre, have no doubt whatsoever in adding JK Rowling to the illustrious author to whom this site bears homage, but also to his fellow Inklings, Ms Sayers and, indeed, Dante.

fair enough, but it's all in the eye of the reader... you said proof of intent... i said a direct statement of such an intention on the part of the author... most the major religions have similar standard themes... i'm sure someone more versed than i could find hindu themes in the HP series... i've seen some interesting articles on hindu themes in the catholic bible, and vice versa, so it's no stretch to carry over the analogy... does this mean it was intended?

ask the author

[inked]

brownjenkins,

Is this sufficient? It seems plain to me.

*********
"I believe in God, not magic." In fact, Rowling initially was afraid that if people were aware of her Christian faith, she would give away too much of what's coming in the series. "If I talk too freely about that," she told a Canadian reporter, "I think the intelligent reader - whether ten or sixty - will be able to guess what is coming in the books."
FANTASIA:THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO C.S. LEWIS by Michael Nelson, published in THE AMERICAN PROSPECT, volume 13, number 4, 25 February 2002.
*********


Which is not to say that there are NO other takes; just that the Christian take is legitimate. To illustrate this line of takes, I suggest a wonderful book HARRY POTTER AND PHILOSOPHY:IF ARISTOTLE RAN HOGWARTS edited by David Baggett and Shawn E. Klein in the Popular Culture and Philosophy Series edited by William Irwin and published by Open Court Publishing Co. This book has several overviews but one I have in mind supporting my thesis is "Heaven, Hell, and Harry Potter" by Jerry L. Walls. Another, which interestingly enough intends to encourage Christians opposing HP that it is okay to read HP, is "Magic, Muggles, and Moral Imagination" by David Baggett.
And the book includes essays on HP in regard to psychology, technolgical ethics, feminism, social justice, et cetera.

So, interested in proceeding or do you wish to wait the publication of the 7th novel. Lord willing and the Mississippi don't rise too high and the New Madrid Fault don't quake too low and my life here doesn't give out, I'll do it then, if you'd rather!

{As for persons being able to read Buddhist messages in, well you might enjoy the article on that topic in LoTR in a related book in this series. Check out THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND PHILOSOPHY: ONE BOOK TO RULE THEM ALL edited by Gregory Bassham and Eric Bronson. The essay "Talking Trees and Walking Mountains: Buddhist and Taoist Themes in the Lord of the Rings" by McMahon and Csaki is interesting.}

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

brownjenkins,

Is this sufficient? It seems plain to me.

*********
"I believe in God, not magic." In fact, Rowling initially was afraid that if people were aware of her Christian faith, she would give away too much of what's coming in the series. "If I talk too freely about that," she told a Canadian reporter, "I think the intelligent reader - whether ten or sixty - will be able to guess what is coming in the books."
FANTASIA:THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO C.S. LEWIS by Michael Nelson, published in THE AMERICAN PROSPECT, volume 13, number 4, 25 February 2002.
*********

yeah, that's the kind of direct statement i mean

so any guess on what she means? is harry gonna be crucified?