Middle-Earth is Dark Age Europe

[GreyMouser]

OK, I try and incite with this idea every now and then.

It should be obvious to everyone that Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age is modelled on Europe circa 900 AD

The Empire has been divided into two; the Western/Northern half has fallen, leaving a desolate waste of forests and marshes where law and order have collapsed, outlaws and worse roam freely, and only a few outposts of an older civilisation remain.
Orcs, trolls= Vikings, Magyars, local marauders
Rivendell, Lorien, Shire, Bree= monasteries and scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome- from a British POV, ties in with Arthur.

Gondor, the Eastern/Southern half of the Empire had expanded and reached new heights of glory, only to fall back under the assaults from the East.

Gondor= Byzantium, Mordor = Islam

PLEASE NOTE!!!!- I am not saying that Tolkien thought Muslims were Evil or Servants of the Dark Lord. Just that his preoccupation with early Medieval times led him to project a vision that very strongly tracks Europe after the Fall of Rome, where Christendom was under attack from a powerful enemy from the South/East

[littleadanel]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

Orcs, trolls= Vikings, Magyars, local marauders

Am proud of myself.

[Sam]

Interesting point of veiw GreyMouser.
I've never really thought of it that way. But now that you mention it, it does fit together alomost perfectly. But what would symbolize the city of Rome itself?

[sun-star]

Hmm, very interesting. It wouldn't be a surprise at all if Tolkien was influenced by his knowledge of this period. In the interests of historical accuracy, however, I have to nitpick

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

It should be obvious to everyone that Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age is modelled on Europe circa 900 AD

The Empire has been divided into two; the Western/Northern half has fallen, leaving a desolate waste of forests and marshes where law and order have collapsed, outlaws and worse roam freely, and only a few outposts of an older civilisation remain.
Orcs, trolls= Vikings, Magyars, local marauders
Rivendell, Lorien, Shire, Bree= monasteries and scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome- from a British POV, ties in with Arthur.

The description you give here, especially of the British Isles, is much more applicable to the 5th century than to the 10th. The Romans left at the beginning of the 400s, and by 900, Anglo-Saxon England was a developed civilisation, not "scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome". Law and order had been restored (the first Anglo-Saxon king to issue a law code was Ethelbert of Kent in the 7th century), the kings of Wessex were exerting authority over a considerable part of England (which was beginning to be called England for the first time), and literature and Christian culture were both flourishing. I know you're talking about Europe as a whole, but as far as England goes, the 10th century is the wrong period to choose.

Arthur also fits better into the earlier timescale, though fictional characters are always flexible when it comes to dates

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by sun-star

Hmm, very interesting. It wouldn't be a surprise at all if Tolkien was influenced by his knowledge of this period. In the interests of historical accuracy, however, I have to nitpick



The description you give here, especially of the British Isles, is much more applicable to the 5th century than to the 10th. The Romans left at the beginning of the 400s, and by 900, Anglo-Saxon England was a developed civilisation, not "scattered outposts holding onto the legacy of Rome". Law and order had been restored (the first Anglo-Saxon king to issue a law code was Ethelbert of Kent in the 7th century), the kings of Wessex were exerting authority over a considerable part of England (which was beginning to be called England for the first time), and literature and Christian culture were both flourishing. I know you're talking about Europe as a whole, but as far as England goes, the 10th century is the wrong period to choose.

Arthur also fits better into the earlier timescale, though fictional characters are always flexible when it comes to dates

Yep, you're right- was being careless with my dates- in fact 900 would probably be a bit late for the Continent too- things were settling down by then and the foundations of the High Middle Ages were being laid.

So shove it back to 500-600.

Sam- hmmm... just write Rome out of the picture and chalk it up to Tolkien's Northern bias

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

Sam- hmmm... just write Rome out of the picture and chalk it up to Tolkien's Northern bias

Rome could be Fornost, perhaps?

[Gordis]

A very interesting thread!

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote).

I don't think we can expect him to retell the Middle Ages history in the right chronological order, though.
While Aragorn is somewhat like Arthur (6th century?) then the division of Arnor is influenced by the division of the Karolingean Empire (9th century?), and Numenor story by the legend of Atlantis (something BC). And the Shire is like 18-19 century England...

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Gordis

A very interesting thread!

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote).

I don't think we can expect him to retell the Middle Ages history in the right chronological order, though.
While Aragorn is somewhat like Arthur (6th century?) then the division of Arnor is influenced by the division of the Karolingean Empire (9th century?), and Numenor story by the legend of Atlantis (something BC). And the Shire is like 18-19 century England...

I'm not saying it exactly tracks what happened- that would be (Horror!) allegory. And the history is certainly different- a case of convergent evolution.
More the general setting- in Arnor, a wilderness that has reclaimed former settled lands, populated with bans of marauders; Gondor, experiencing a reflorescence (that would make Numenor the stand-in for Rome; as I said the back-story is different), but then waning under pressure from the East.

As for the settled Anglo-Saxons, dare one suggest...Rohan?- (scurries quickly for shelter)

Of course modern Medievalists (is that an oxymoron?) suggest that the Dark Ages weren't so Dark, and especially that the population didn't drop so much, but that was certainly the traditional perspective.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

Of course modern Medievalists (is that an oxymoron?) suggest that the Dark Ages weren't so Dark, and especially that the population didn't drop so much, but that was certainly the traditional perspective.

Speaking of the Middle Ages, I'd say that the Black Death, the plague epidemic that killed about 25 million people in Europe was probably the model for the plague that around 1670 TA killed the majority of the Cardolanean population and also hit Gondor pretty badly.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

As for the settled Anglo-Saxons, dare one suggest...Rohan?- (scurries quickly for shelter)

No need to scurry for shelter. Sure, Tolkien thought of Anglo-Saxons when depicting Rohan. Even the names are Anglo-Saxon in form.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

As for the settled Anglo-Saxons, dare one suggest...Rohan?- (scurries quickly for shelter)

Absolutely. There are many similarities between Rohan and the Anglo-Saxons - Theoden even practically quotes an Old English poem

Of course modern Medievalists (is that an oxymoron?) suggest that the Dark Ages weren't so Dark, and especially that the population didn't drop so much, but that was certainly the traditional perspective.

I did have to restrain myself from commenting on that before... "Dark Ages" seems so inappropriate, even if all it's meant to imply is that we don't know much about them!

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Gordis

No need to scurry for shelter. Sure, Tolkien thought of Anglo-Saxons when depicting Rohan. Even the names are Anglo-Saxon in form.

I originally started posting about Tolkien on the old White Council site run by Michael Martinez, and Rohan=Anglo-Saxons was one of his pet peeves (along with pointed ears on Elves).

And when MM came down on you, believe me, you scurried for shelter

I'll go with Tom Shippey. Rohan = Anglo-Saxons + horses.
In "The Road to Middle-Earth" he argues that the Rohirrim were JRR's recreation of a hypothetical Old Gothic Indo-European horse culture based in the plains of Hungary (pre-Huns, of course)

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by sun-star

I did have to restrain myself from commenting on that before... "Dark Ages" seems so inappropriate, even if all it's meant to imply is that we don't know much about them!

Well, I'm not so revisionist myself- I tend to be a bit of a Classicist and mourn "the glory that was Greece, the grandeur that was Rome".

I do remember from many years ago, European History 120 (Fall of Rome to Renaissance) my prof was an Austrian. The first day he handed us a map labeled "Migrations of the Peoples" (German: Volkswanderung)

I asked what that meant; he replied "the movements of the Germanic peoples to the West'

'Oh, you mean the Barbarian Invasions"

"THEY WERE NOT BARBARIANS!!!"

Had to work really hard in that class.

[Gordis]

LOL.
Great story.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Rome could be Fornost, perhaps?

If you want the city that was sacked by "barbarians"... or you could take Annuminas, which was probably a grander city.

I don't think Tolkien actually modeled Middle Earth on a given time in a given part of the world. Rather, I think he borrowed all sorts of episodes from history and mythology, and re-arranged them to suit (or create) his own stories.

[Alcuin]

Not Rome, but Byzantium, which slowly depopulated following plague and war, and was situated (like Minas Tirith) on the western side of the primary trade route to the Lands Beyond. Byzantium, like Minas Tirith, was at continuous war with a cruel and unrelenting foe to the East that slaughtered all who did not submit to its religion; and Byzantium, like Minas Tirith, was not the first great capital but the second, selected after an earlier and grander capital fell into ruin and decay. (The first was Rome for Byzantium, and Osgiliath for Minas Tirith. Note that this relationship is also true for Annúminas and Fornost Erain.)

Like Byzantium, Minas Tirith made peace with the barbarian tribes to the North and used them as cavalry against the invaders. Like Byzantium, Minas Tirith’s impregnable walls that had withstood invaders for centuries were breached with magic (black powder for Byzantium, black magic for Minas Tirith; but when men used alchemy instead of chemistry, many Byzantines considered black powder a form of black magic). Like Byzantium, Minas Tirith once ruled the sea with a might navy, maintaining ports and far-flung outposts to protects its interests and its citizens, and during that period, its power and influence stretched far to the south, and its name and the rumor of its power were known in many distant lands. And finally, like Byzantium, Minas Tirith was a repository of ancient knowledge lost to the rest of the world, a shining beacon of civilization and a remembrance of thousands of years of past glory long gone, an ember flickering in the approaching darkness of the end of that civilization.

But unlike Byzantium, Minas Tirith was saved.

For the Dark Ages that Tolkien studied, and for the Middle Ages that followed, Byzantium, not Rome, was the shining citadel of Christendom. And Byzantium, like Minas Tirith, was a bit alien and old-fashioned to those from the north-west of Middle-earth – or the north-west of Europe.

[CAB]

Very impressive Alcuin. That certainly sounds like more than coincidence. Do you know if anyone ever questioned Tolkien about these similarities?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think Tolkien was influenced by the European history, yes by Arthurian legend, and Rome, and Byzantium, but also Tolkien himself likened Gondor and Arnor to the Upper and Lower Egypt (sorry, I can't find the exact quote).

The Numenoreans, more specifically, but by extension the Dunedain to an extent. I believe he even gave the Numenorean crown as modeled after the Egyptian syncretised edition in the Letters, but mine are sort of in a different continent, so I can't look it up...

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

The Numenoreans, more specifically, but by extension the Dunedain to an extent. I believe he even gave the Numenorean crown as modeled after the Egyptian syncretised edition in the Letters, but mine are sort of in a different continent, so I can't look it up...

That’s in letter 211, written 1958.

The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms.

And there’s a sketch of a Númenórean king wearing the crown of Gondor, which Tolkien draws to look very like the crown of Upper Egypt.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

*gives a blueberry muffin to Alcuin*

Very well done indeed! Kudos to you!