Metaphysical discussion

***Jonathan*** · 03-19-2003, 06:28 PM

I couldn't find a thread dealing with metaphysical questions, so I'll start one now.

Here are some questions (which were discussed off-topic in this Vampire thread, we can continue the discussion here):

Is reality the same for everyone, or is reality experienced differently from person to person? For example, we all live in the same world. However some people believe that the world contains a divine power, a God. Since God might be very present in the lives of the religiously inclined, are they living in a "reality" of their own? Are the atheists living in another "reality" too?
Or are we all living our lives in a computer generated world Ã* la Matrix?

If something can't be seen or proved, can it still exist? Can supernatural things occur, or is there an explanation to everything, just that we can't always find the explanation? Is there magic in the world?
What is love? Is there love?

Insidious Rex · 03-19-2003, 06:36 PM

Yowza. Where should I start....

First thanks for the thread. I didnt mean to suggest that we should ignore vampires and talk about bigger issues I just love topics like this thats all.

Well I'll take on the love thing first. Yeah love exists. Its an emotion. Its verfiable because it is part of our mating and bonding ritual as sentient beings. It allows us to bond to a mate and overcome self protective mechanisms that would otherwise not allow us to protect our mate and our offspring. Now "love" may be different from person to person but the basic idea is generally the same accross the species. It can probably even be measured by monitering things like hormonal and adrenal shifts in a person when the object of their love is with them as opposed to when a stranger is with them. Pupil dialations, heart rythem changes, flushing of the capaleries leading to the skin, cuticular hair folicles are engorged with blood and stand up. All that sort of thing. Sorry, Im taking all the fun out of it arent I. *laugh*

***Jonathan*** · 03-19-2003, 06:39 PM

Wow, nice definition of love! That should make those poor wretches who don't believe in love to start believing

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-19-2003, 06:50 PM

From the Vampires thread:

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
What, don't you have faith in humans? Are we just like animals with a single desire to pass on our genes?

Well, kinda...I definitely do believe that humans are capable of love, if that is what you mean. But my point is that because couples seem to be 'loving' doesn't necessarily mean there is love there. You don't KNOW it. Sometimes all they're interested in is fleshly desires, sometimes they positively hate each other, and just put on a show. You cannot really KNOW that there is love between two people.

What IR was talking about measuring sounds more like the 'fleshly' desires than actual love, the abstract.

***Jonathan*** · 03-19-2003, 07:00 PM

I agree with you that I can't really know which couples are "fleshy" and which are "loving". But it's an encouraging thought to know that there is "real love" in the world

And I believe that love, "real" or not, can somewhat be measured in the ways that Insidious Rex described.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-19-2003, 07:05 PM

But how do you know it is there? You can't see it, or hear it, or something.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-19-2003, 07:18 PM

It depends on your definition of 'real' love. To me, it is not something as passionate and fleeting as the 'other' kind, but something more passive, permanent, deep, and I suppose one might say spiritual, though that really doesn't fit very well, but it's the best thing I can find. The love I am speaking of, I highly doubt can be measured through such things. The pupils would be permanently dilated, the heart rate would be permanently altered, and so on.

Aeryn · 03-19-2003, 08:01 PM

Gah, didn't know Mooters were deep....

Insidious Rex · 03-19-2003, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
What IR was talking about measuring sounds more like the 'fleshly' desires than actual love, the abstract.

well no see theres a definite biophysiological (?) difference between how we show "love" and how we show "lust". Our bodies do different things. And our behavior is different. They can be both measured. In other words the reactions you see in males when an attractive female walks by are different in nature then the reaction of a coupled male when it is with its mate. Vastly different changes in sexual hormone reactions and such especially. You get turned on when you see a prospective mate appear. You feel something altogether different when your long time mate appears (yeah of course you can still feel lust for them but certainly not ALL the time when they are around (I know ladies you wish dont you)). So yeah theres definitely a measurable difference between love and lust.

Insidious Rex · 03-19-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
Gah, didn't know Mooters were deep....

hey you should have been here when we were discussing the physics of time travel.

Lief Erikson · 03-19-2003, 09:30 PM

I already knew that love was scientifically explained, and I'm glad that it is. Whether or not it's spiritual also is a matter of personal experience, belief or opinion.

Insidious Rex · 03-19-2003, 10:38 PM

Well I suppose we'll need a specific definition of "spiritual".

afro-elf · 03-20-2003, 01:27 AM

No there is not a specific metaphysical tread per se but this topics have been discussed here before.

I am pressed for time but maybe if you PM the following they might porvide links for you

beard of pants

anduril

blackheart

cirdan

mathron

afro-elf · 03-20-2003, 01:39 AM

Here you go:

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...highlight=zeno

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ght=relativism

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ght=relativism

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ght=relativism

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ight=serotonin

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ight=serotonin

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ight=serotonin

Insidious Rex · 03-20-2003, 01:50 AM

afro-elf you been busy lately or something?

afro-elf · 03-20-2003, 01:54 AM

Also check the archive threads.

Baby-K · 03-20-2003, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
Gah, didn't know Mooters were deep....

Yeah there was a revolution in yer absence

I for one am not falling for it - too much thinking not enough drinking

Lief Erikson · 03-20-2003, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonathanIf something can't be seen or proved, can it still exist? Can supernatural things occur, or is there an explanation to everything, just that we can't always find the explanation? Is there magic in the world?

Magic by definition is something supernatural. By being supernatural, it is unnatural to the natural. If it is unnatural to the natural, then it isn't commonly observed.

This leads me to the following question, Jonathan. Are you in contact with witches, wizards, New Ageists, Satanists, psychics, or those that actually do claim to have magical power? Because if so, and if you have challenged the existence of their power, then you would be able to hear or observe from a first hand source its existence. If you haven't, then you can't say that the supernatural doesn't exist.

And if something can't be seen or proved, it definitely can exist. For example, our technology will never unravel all the secrets of this awesome universe we live in. There are some things that we will never discover; with our planet and vision simply cannot reach that far. However, our lack of knowledge of something definitely doesn't show that it deosn't exist. If there's no way to prove that something exists, there also can be no proof that it doesn't exist. And this is not a misplaced burden of proof. Something beyond human comprehension doesn't require human comprehension to be able to exist. Do atoms require that guinea pigs comprehend them in order to exist?

***Jonathan*** · 03-20-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
This leads me to the following question, Jonathan. Are you in contact with witches, wizards, New Ageists, Satanists, psychics, or those that actually do claim to have magical power? Because if so, and if you have challenged the existence of their power, then you would be able to hear or observe from a first hand source its existence. If you haven't, then you can't say that the supernatural doesn't exist.

No, I am not in direct contact with witches and wizards. But if I knew any, I would surely not believe in their so-called powers. Just because they claim to be able to use magic, it doesn't make magic exist.

Baby-K · 03-20-2003, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
No, I am not in direct contact with witches and wizards. But if I knew any, I would surely not believe in their so-called powers. Just because they claim to be able to use magic, it doesn't make magic exist.

And just because you're not in contact with any doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Just another form of realities differing from person to person - we base it on what we see & what we have experienced. Unless something happens to you or you have first hand experience of it, it would be difficult to assimilate it to your reality.

03-19-2003, 06:28 PM	#1
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	Metaphysical discussion I couldn't find a thread dealing with metaphysical questions, so I'll start one now. Here are some questions (which were discussed off-topic in this Vampire thread, we can continue the discussion here): Is reality the same for everyone, or is reality experienced differently from person to person? For example, we all live in the same world. However some people believe that the world contains a divine power, a God. Since God might be very present in the lives of the religiously inclined, are they living in a "reality" of their own? Are the atheists living in another "reality" too? Or are we all living our lives in a computer generated world Ã* la Matrix? If something can't be seen or proved, can it still exist? Can supernatural things occur, or is there an explanation to everything, just that we can't always find the explanation? Is there magic in the world? What is love? Is there love? __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and itâ€™s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry thatâ€™s ever been written. ☻

03-19-2003, 06:36 PM	#2
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Yowza. Where should I start.... First thanks for the thread. I didnt mean to suggest that we should ignore vampires and talk about bigger issues I just love topics like this thats all. Well I'll take on the love thing first. Yeah love exists. Its an emotion. Its verfiable because it is part of our mating and bonding ritual as sentient beings. It allows us to bond to a mate and overcome self protective mechanisms that would otherwise not allow us to protect our mate and our offspring. Now "love" may be different from person to person but the basic idea is generally the same accross the species. It can probably even be measured by monitering things like hormonal and adrenal shifts in a person when the object of their love is with them as opposed to when a stranger is with them. Pupil dialations, heart rythem changes, flushing of the capaleries leading to the skin, cuticular hair folicles are engorged with blood and stand up. All that sort of thing. Sorry, Im taking all the fun out of it arent I. laugh __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

03-19-2003, 06:39 PM	#3
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	Wow, nice definition of love! That should make those poor wretches who don't believe in love to start believing __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and itâ€™s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry thatâ€™s ever been written. ☻

03-19-2003, 07:00 PM	#5
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	I agree with you that I can't really know which couples are "fleshy" and which are "loving". But it's an encouraging thought to know that there is "real love" in the world And I believe that love, "real" or not, can somewhat be measured in the ways that Insidious Rex described. __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and itâ€™s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry thatâ€™s ever been written. ☻

03-19-2003, 07:05 PM	#6
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	But how do you know it is there? You can't see it, or hear it, or something. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-19-2003, 07:18 PM	#7
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	It depends on your definition of 'real' love. To me, it is not something as passionate and fleeting as the 'other' kind, but something more passive, permanent, deep, and I suppose one might say spiritual, though that really doesn't fit very well, but it's the best thing I can find. The love I am speaking of, I highly doubt can be measured through such things. The pupils would be permanently dilated, the heart rate would be permanently altered, and so on. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-19-2003, 08:01 PM	#8
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	Gah, didn't know Mooters were deep.... __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

03-19-2003, 09:30 PM	#11
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	I already knew that love was scientifically explained, and I'm glad that it is. Whether or not it's spiritual also is a matter of personal experience, belief or opinion.

03-19-2003, 10:38 PM	#12
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Well I suppose we'll need a specific definition of "spiritual". __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

03-20-2003, 01:27 AM	#13
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	No there is not a specific metaphysical tread per se but this topics have been discussed here before. I am pressed for time but maybe if you PM the following they might porvide links for you beard of pants anduril blackheart cirdan mathron __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-20-2003, 01:39 AM	#14
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Here you go: http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...highlight=zeno http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ght=relativism http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ght=relativism http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ght=relativism http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ight=serotonin http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ight=serotonin http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...ight=serotonin __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-20-2003, 01:50 AM	#15
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	afro-elf you been busy lately or something? __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

03-20-2003, 01:54 AM	#16
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Also check the archive threads. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

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