Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the LOTR?

Black Breathalizer · 03-02-2003, 07:25 PM

I thought it would be good to create a legitimate place to continue an off-topic discussion that started on another thread about the romance between Arwen and Aragorn.

The question: Is the love story of Aragorn and Arwen important to the telling (movie or book) of the Lord of the Rings?

Earlier comments included:

BB: The only difference from the book is that PJ is focusing on this intriguing love story more than Tolkien did.

Gwaimir Windgem: The reason Tolkien didn't focus on it is because it did not belong in the Lord of the Rings, as he states in his letters.

BB: I don't know what Tolkien's LETTERS say, but the books HE WROTE include the love story of Arwen and Aragorn. Jackson didn't make it up. The only difference between the books and the movies is the level of focus. So don't give us any baloney about this romance not belonging in LOTR. It most certainly does.

Gwaimir Windgem: No, it is in poor keeping with the story. That is why Tolkien relegated it to the Appendices. Sorry about the confusion; he said that, while he liked the story, it did NOT belong with the main story of the Lord of the Rings, and therefore he put it in the back.

What do the rest of you think?

durin's bane · 03-02-2003, 07:28 PM

Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the Lord of the Rings?

Hmmm....let me think...oh...what's that word...oh yeah. NO.

Lady of Rohan · 03-02-2003, 07:35 PM

I don't really think that it is all that important. Sure, it is fine to have in there, but if they didn't put it in I wouldn't complain.

Black Breathalizer · 03-02-2003, 07:41 PM

I always thought that it helped to define Aragorn's character. Obviously Peter Jackson thought so too.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-02-2003, 07:45 PM

If you just took that silly horse-wrassler out, you could have more time for the development of characters all round, Aragorn's included.

Black Breathalizer · 03-02-2003, 07:48 PM

If you hadn't wasted your time freaking out about cliff falls and helping horses, you'd have noticed that Jackson was brilliantly developing Aragorn's character.

backatcha

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-02-2003, 07:50 PM

If you hadn't been busy raving about the divinity of Jackson, you'd have noticed it was just an excuse for more Arwen (including a shot of the *erhem* 'Evenstar').

BackatCHA

Artanis · 03-02-2003, 08:02 PM

Well in the book there's a lot of subtle hints to their love story, so you could say it's in there, forming the background, and giving some of the reasons for Aragorn to act like he does. But so are many other things, references to the Elder days, and history previously unfolded that determines the actions of everyone taking part in the war of the Ring. Much of this background is placed in the appendices. That's why reading the appendices after reading the book the first time, makes you want to read the book one more time, at once!

Conclusion: No, I don't think their love story was essential to the story of the war of the Ring. But the love between Aragorn and Arwen and their marriage was very important to the history of Middle-Earth. It brought a renewed strain of Elvish blood and nobility to the powerful rulers of the kingdom of Men.

About the movie: I basicly think the Aragorn-Arwen scenes suck, mainly because of Liv Tyler. And I'm no male, so I thought the tit-thingy was just plain stupid

So how did the presence of Arwen help to develop Aragorn's character? The only thing I noticed was that Elrond got to show off his rather scary overprotective-father side.

Lizra · 03-02-2003, 08:02 PM

One didn't play it up enough (Tolkien), the other, too much (Jackson)

I was always somewhat annoyed at this bit in the books. Aragorn cleans up and is with her at Rivendell. Bilbo refers to her with a sentence. Then she sews a banner, and they get married. To skimpy!

(IMO)

The bit in the movie where she puts the sword to his throat is highly annoying for me. I can't imagine saying hello to the "love of your life", who you haven't seen in ages that way!

I think they could have used more "big elvish names"in FoTR. It wouldn't have confused people, it probably would have piqued interest (IMO) , so dumping Glorfingle was not good to me. That decided though, I thought using Arwen in his place was interesting. It beats my mental image of her pouring her heart out into a banner! I'm still digesting TTT.

BeardofPants · 03-02-2003, 08:05 PM

Nope.

...Oh you want justification? Hmm, well let's see... The story's focal points would be: the development and maturation of the hobbits, the destruction of the ring, the fading of the elves, and the third age, the Great War, etc, etc. Don't see any room for an elf-hussy there, do you? No, I'm sorry, but I don't think that their love story was important to the story line. Whether he had Arwen's love or not, Aragorn would still have been forced to take up his role of king-ship. He would still have been part of the fellowship. He would still have ridden down the paths of the dead. Arwen doesn't have jack-**** to do with the main themes in LOTR.

LuthienTinuviel · 03-02-2003, 08:08 PM

I think that it is important, but not to LotR.

And BB, you can talk about Arwen and Aragorn's story being important to LotR with out talking about the movies. Then, this thread should be put in the books forum.

EDIT: But, you have to drag Jackson into EVERYTHING so to you, im sure this is different.

Lizra · 03-02-2003, 08:10 PM

That's interesting Artanis! Yes the appendices are there, but many people might not read them. ( I just skim them quickly, which is painfully obvious sometimes,

but I've never been a Tolkien scholar type!) Though the appendices have "nuggets", they can be quite dry and history classish. I don't consider them part of the story proper! That's just me!

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-02-2003, 08:10 PM

Not really. It is more about should they have/should they not have had it.

***azalea*** · 03-02-2003, 08:26 PM

No, the love "story" isn't important to the telling of either tale, but boy am I glad it was put in both! The story of Aragorn and Arwen was beautiful and romantic. I think it made sense for Tolkien to write it as he did, because inserting the history of their romance in the middle of the book wouldn't have flowed well. He didn't have to flesh out the story in the Appendices, but I for one am glad he did.
I also think PJ was right to include it in the story proper, because it fits well and he certainly doesn't have the option of an appendix. I mean, why not? Why wouldn't he include it? There were of course things I would have done differently, but that has been discussed elsewhere. The movie as written has the dual character focus of Frodo and his quest and Aragorn going from ranger to king. I think that Arwen plays a large role in his motivation (as do other things), and it makes sense to show the audience their relationship. It is explained subtly in the book, but has to be dramatized in the movie if it is to make sense to moviegoers. It is an imaginative, romantic tale that had rich possibilities for dramatization. As I said, why not include it? Although, again, this is not to say I agree w/ all of the decisions he made in including her.

**Nurvingiel** · 03-02-2003, 10:32 PM

The character of Arwen was actually added by Tolkien at the last minute. This leads me to believe that he didn't place as much value on it as on other threads of the plot.

The romance between Arwen and Aragorn is a great story, just not one that's important to LotR.

One great thing about Middle-earth is there are so many great stories and characters that we only glimpse for a few moments - enough to get a sense of a world larger than the events you're experiencing.

The Aragorn-Arwen love story is such a story. When we're in LotR, it's not important, and therefore we only see a small part. But it's still part of the richer fabric of Middle-earth, as another great story.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-02-2003, 10:37 PM

No-one's denying that; it's a fine story. It's just not a part of THE Story, i.e. the one that is told.

Lady_of_the_Golden_Wood · 03-02-2003, 11:14 PM

NOOOOO! It's not important!!! Arwen is too lovesick in the movie.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-02-2003, 11:16 PM

The discussion is not concerning whether or not the characters were well-portrayed, or whether or not the roles were well-played, or anything of the sort. The discussion was about whether or not the story is important to the Lord of the Rings, as the title states.

Elvellyn · 03-03-2003, 12:07 AM

Their story is very important to the plot, though not directly involved.

Remember in Return of the King when Gandalf and Aragorn go off and find the Tree? Aragorn was upset because he didn't think he was going to marry Arwen and worried that he would have gone through all this trouble to reclaim the throne, only to have Gondor fall once again due to lack of an heir.

She was one of Aragorn's motivations to do alot of the things that he did.

So basically I think their story was essential to the plot but not involved with it ;which is why Tolkien left it to the appendixes.
However, as someone stated before, movies can't have appendixes so that wouldn't have worked.

In a movie you can't just have someone show up and say "Hey! Remember me? Let's get married!" Arwen's introduction was needed in the movies to make her likeable and seem worthy of the King before the wedding.( I'm guessing at this point you're still gonna have some people mad because Eowyn didn't get him

)
Arwen's role in the movies was justified and appropriate IMO.

BB: I think she was very important to the development of Aragorn's character.

**Nurvingiel** · 03-03-2003, 12:51 AM

Well, I agree she needed to be in the movies, but I don't think she needed as much screen time as she got.

03-02-2003, 07:25 PM	#1
Black Breathalizer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 828	Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the LOTR? I thought it would be good to create a legitimate place to continue an off-topic discussion that started on another thread about the romance between Arwen and Aragorn. The question: Is the love story of Aragorn and Arwen important to the telling (movie or book) of the Lord of the Rings? Earlier comments included: BB: The only difference from the book is that PJ is focusing on this intriguing love story more than Tolkien did. Gwaimir Windgem: The reason Tolkien didn't focus on it is because it did not belong in the Lord of the Rings, as he states in his letters. BB: I don't know what Tolkien's LETTERS say, but the books HE WROTE include the love story of Arwen and Aragorn. Jackson didn't make it up. The only difference between the books and the movies is the level of focus. So don't give us any baloney about this romance not belonging in LOTR. It most certainly does. Gwaimir Windgem: No, it is in poor keeping with the story. That is why Tolkien relegated it to the Appendices. Sorry about the confusion; he said that, while he liked the story, it did NOT belong with the main story of the Lord of the Rings, and therefore he put it in the back. What do the rest of you think?

03-02-2003, 07:28 PM	#2
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the Lord of the Rings? Hmmm....let me think...oh...what's that word...oh yeah. NO. __________________ Yada, yada, yada

03-02-2003, 07:45 PM	#5
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	If you just took that silly horse-wrassler out, you could have more time for the development of characters all round, Aragorn's included. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-02-2003, 07:50 PM	#7
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	If you hadn't been busy raving about the divinity of Jackson, you'd have noticed it was just an excuse for more Arwen (including a shot of the erhem* 'Evenstar')*. BackatCHA __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-02-2003, 08:02 PM	#8
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Re: Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the LOTR? Well in the book there's a lot of subtle hints to their love story, so you could say it's in there, forming the background, and giving some of the reasons for Aragorn to act like he does. But so are many other things, references to the Elder days, and history previously unfolded that determines the actions of everyone taking part in the war of the Ring. Much of this background is placed in the appendices. That's why reading the appendices after reading the book the first time, makes you want to read the book one more time, at once! Conclusion: No, I don't think their love story was essential to the story of the war of the Ring. But the love between Aragorn and Arwen and their marriage was very important to the history of Middle-Earth. It brought a renewed strain of Elvish blood and nobility to the powerful rulers of the kingdom of Men. About the movie: I basicly think the Aragorn-Arwen scenes suck, mainly because of Liv Tyler. And I'm no male, so I thought the tit-thingy was just plain stupid So how did the presence of Arwen help to develop Aragorn's character? The only thing I noticed was that Elrond got to show off his rather scary overprotective-father side. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

03-02-2003, 07:35 PM	#3
Lady of Rohan Doughy Elf Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,006	I don't really think that it is all that important. Sure, it is fine to have in there, but if they didn't put it in I wouldn't complain.

03-02-2003, 07:41 PM	#4
Black Breathalizer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 828	I always thought that it helped to define Aragorn's character. Obviously Peter Jackson thought so too.

03-02-2003, 07:48 PM	#6
Black Breathalizer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 828	If you hadn't wasted your time freaking out about cliff falls and helping horses, you'd have noticed that Jackson was brilliantly developing Aragorn's character. backatcha

03-02-2003, 08:02 PM	#9
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	One didn't play it up enough (Tolkien), the other, too much (Jackson) I was always somewhat annoyed at this bit in the books. Aragorn cleans up and is with her at Rivendell. Bilbo refers to her with a sentence. Then she sews a banner, and they get married. To skimpy! (IMO) The bit in the movie where she puts the sword to his throat is highly annoying for me. I can't imagine saying hello to the "love of your life", who you haven't seen in ages that way! I think they could have used more "big elvish names"in FoTR. It wouldn't have confused people, it probably would have piqued interest (IMO) , so dumping Glorfingle was not good to me. That decided though, I thought using Arwen in his place was interesting. It beats my mental image of her pouring her heart out into a banner! I'm still digesting TTT. __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 03-02-2003 at 08:03 PM.

03-02-2003, 08:05 PM	#10
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Nope. ...Oh you want justification? Hmm, well let's see... The story's focal points would be: the development and maturation of the hobbits, the destruction of the ring, the fading of the elves, and the third age, the Great War, etc, etc. Don't see any room for an elf-hussy there, do you? No, I'm sorry, but I don't think that their love story was important to the story line. Whether he had Arwen's love or not, Aragorn would still have been forced to take up his role of king-ship. He would still have been part of the fellowship. He would still have ridden down the paths of the dead. Arwen doesn't have jack-**** to do with the main themes in LOTR. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

03-02-2003, 08:08 PM	#11
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	must....not.....flame............ARGH! I think that it is important, but not to LotR. And BB, you can talk about Arwen and Aragorn's story being important to LotR with out talking about the movies. Then, this thread should be put in the books forum. EDIT: But, you have to drag Jackson into EVERYTHING so to you, im sure this is different. __________________ Last edited by LuthienTinuviel : 03-02-2003 at 08:36 PM.

03-02-2003, 08:10 PM	#12
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	That's interesting Artanis! Yes the appendices are there, but many people might not read them. ( I just skim them quickly, which is painfully obvious sometimes, but I've never been a Tolkien scholar type!) Though the appendices have "nuggets", they can be quite dry and history classish. I don't consider them part of the story proper! That's just me! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

03-02-2003, 08:26 PM	#14
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	No, the love "story" isn't important to the telling of either tale, but boy am I glad it was put in both! The story of Aragorn and Arwen was beautiful and romantic. I think it made sense for Tolkien to write it as he did, because inserting the history of their romance in the middle of the book wouldn't have flowed well. He didn't have to flesh out the story in the Appendices, but I for one am glad he did. I also think PJ was right to include it in the story proper, because it fits well and he certainly doesn't have the option of an appendix. I mean, why not? Why wouldn't he include it? There were of course things I would have done differently, but that has been discussed elsewhere. The movie as written has the dual character focus of Frodo and his quest and Aragorn going from ranger to king. I think that Arwen plays a large role in his motivation (as do other things), and it makes sense to show the audience their relationship. It is explained subtly in the book, but has to be dramatized in the movie if it is to make sense to moviegoers. It is an imaginative, romantic tale that had rich possibilities for dramatization. As I said, why not include it? Although, again, this is not to say I agree w/ all of the decisions he made in including her.

03-02-2003, 10:37 PM	#16
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	No-one's denying that; it's a fine story. It's just not a part of THE Story, i.e. the one that is told. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-02-2003, 11:14 PM	#17
Lady_of_the_Golden_Wood The Precious Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Glasgow Posts: 204	NOOOOO! It's not important!!! Arwen is too lovesick in the movie. __________________ was holding on hanging by a thread clinging to three words you said but words are meaningless in your absence.

03-02-2003, 11:16 PM	#18
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	The discussion is not concerning whether or not the characters were well-portrayed, or whether or not the roles were well-played, or anything of the sort. The discussion was about whether or not the story is important to the Lord of the Rings, as the title states. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-03-2003, 12:07 AM	#19
Elvellyn The Redneck Elf Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: In a house Posts: 539	Their story is very important to the plot, though not directly involved. Remember in Return of the King when Gandalf and Aragorn go off and find the Tree? Aragorn was upset because he didn't think he was going to marry Arwen and worried that he would have gone through all this trouble to reclaim the throne, only to have Gondor fall once again due to lack of an heir. She was one of Aragorn's motivations to do alot of the things that he did. So basically I think their story was essential to the plot but not involved with it ;which is why Tolkien left it to the appendixes. However, as someone stated before, movies can't have appendixes so that wouldn't have worked. In a movie you can't just have someone show up and say "Hey! Remember me? Let's get married!" Arwen's introduction was needed in the movies to make her likeable and seem worthy of the King before the wedding.( I'm guessing at this point you're still gonna have some people mad because Eowyn didn't get him) Arwen's role in the movies was justified and appropriate IMO. BB: I think she was very important to the development of Aragorn's character. __________________ Oliphants make great pets.

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