Paris

[Alcuin]

Anyone in Paris this weekend? Some of you are from the Low Countries… all ok?

[Mari]

Paris is a bit too low for me
Actually, I have a lot of grading to do before the dreaded deadline.

Anyways: have fun!

[Mari]

Oh. I just read about the attacks... that's really not what I thought you were asking.
Sometimes I really don't understand humanity.

[Nerwen]

I love Paris and loathe anyone evil enough to do something like this

Susie

[Earniel]

I'm okay as well. Well, physically anyway.

But the scale of this pointless murdering spree is too horrendous and all too near to not be affected.

[Alcuin]

It wasn’t pointless: It demonstrates the insouciant ineptitude and incompetence of governments across Europe and North America. And like 11 September 2001 in America, 11 March 2004 in Spain, and 7 July 2005 in Britain, it also shows Western government incapable of protecting their citizens, instead encouraging millions of people to cross their borders with no intention of assimilating, but of overwhelming and subjugating the citizenry. That’s not immigration: It’s invasion by invitation.

To put it in Tolkien’s terms, it’s as if Gondor opened its borders to any and all Haradrim without regard to their allegiance to Sauron, then sent heralds into Umbar and Far Harad to announce it. Tolkien even offered an example: Rhudaur allowed the Hillmen, whose allegiance was to Angmar rather than the Dúnadan prince, to enter its country. They overran the place, murdered the Dúnedain, and ultimately waged war against Cardolan and Arthedain in alliance with Angmar.

They made their point. Like Umbar and Angmar, they’ll make it again and again.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

It wasn’t pointless: It demonstrates the insouciant ineptitude and incompetence of governments across Europe and North America. And like 11 September 2001 in America, 11 March 2004 in Spain, and 7 July 2005 in Britain, it also shows Western government incapable of protecting their citizens, instead encouraging millions of people to cross their borders with no intention of assimilating, but of overwhelming and subjugating the citizenry. That’s not immigration: It’s invasion by invitation.

To put it in Tolkien’s terms, it’s as if Gondor opened its borders to any and all Haradrim without regard to their allegiance to Sauron, then sent heralds into Umbar and Far Harad to announce it. Tolkien even offered an example: Rhudaur allowed the Hillmen, whose allegiance was to Angmar rather than the Dúnadan prince, to enter its country. They overran the place, murdered the Dúnedain, and ultimately waged war against Cardolan and Arthedain in alliance with Angmar.

They made their point. Like Umbar and Angmar, they’ll make it again and again.

+1 Good thinking

[Valandil]

I fear this is not anything like the last - that they'll only continue to increase in scope. Far less talked about was what happened in Lebanon just a few days before, and Kenya a few months ago (I think). We're in for a real fight, people. Too many won't even let themselves recognize this yet.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

It wasn’t pointless: It demonstrates the insouciant ineptitude and incompetence of governments across Europe and North America. And like 11 September 2001 in America, 11 March 2004 in Spain, and 7 July 2005 in Britain, it also shows Western government incapable of protecting their citizens, instead encouraging millions of people to cross their borders with no intention of assimilating, but of overwhelming and subjugating the citizenry. That’s not immigration: It’s invasion by invitation.

Hm, I think that's massively oversimplifying the issues involved. Migration certainly plays a role (and I have many opinions about that) considering at least one terrorist came to Europe with refugees, but is not the sole issue at play. I don't approve of the current migration politics the EU uses, but it's too easy to blame this massacre on that. If thousands of people weren't seeking asylum in Europe at this moment, we'd still have these tragedies. The US has and has had pretty draconian migrations laws and even those didn't stop 9-11.

No, migration didn't cause these deaths. Terrorists did. Locking down borders is not necessarily going to make any big difference in the long run. They'll find their way in eventually, by exploiting liberties our citizens have, because to arm against that is to take those very liberties away.

(And I for one am tired of the rethoric that the West is ultimatedly responsible for every malcontent with a bomb or gun that is so drugged up or brainwashed that really the best he or she can do with their life is kill as many civilians as they can to give their life any meaning.)

Societies can learn many different lessons out of any tragedy or massacre, or none at all. It does not make the deaths themselves any less pointless, IMO.

[Alcuin]

The problem did not start with this year’s mass migration into Europe. Nor did it begin with the mass migrations across the southern borders of the United States in the past seven years. It began decades ago as a cynical but openly expressed plan in the United States, France, and Germany to bring in low-skilled workers from outside the country to do menial labor while keeping down costs. In economic terms, to transfer the balance of negotiating power from labor to capital, increasing returns to capital by decreasing returns to labor. That isn’t Marxism, but old-fashioned, hard-boiled economics.

Laying aside the (quite serious) moral and ethical questions surrounding such policies, the problem isn’t immigration. Immigrants bring with them new ideas, new techniques, new customs and (best of all!) new food. They assimilate into their new home, make friends with new neighbors, learn the language, practice the customs, and bring salt and spice to the society they join. Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi, St. Ambrose taught us: “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”

The problem is people who come with no intention of assimilating, but to take advantage of their new neighbors, impose their will upon them, oppress them, murder them to accomplish these things, and ultimately conquer and enslave them. That is exactly what is happening all across the West.

Our politicians, “journalists”, and self-anointed “intelligentsia” have conflated the two in order to confuse us, vociferously insisting that opposition to those who would kill and enslave us is animosity toward peaceful folk who seek only a better life and an opportunity to contribute to a society that will appreciate them. It is a lie, an attempt to sow confusion and dissention among good folk, a brazen accusation against those who dissent, calling them “right-wing” and “racist”, to maintain their obfuscation as long as possible. “Confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster.” (Letters of JRR Tolkien, #208.)

Some of you are from Belgium. According to today’s reports, Sint-Jans-Molenbeek in Brussels is a “den of terrorists”. I suspect many other such dens could be uncovered among the capitals and great cities of the West, had our leaders the moral courage to expose them.

It will be a long time before this ends. Retaining our civilization – not to mention Tolkien boards – is far from assured.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The problem did not start with this year’s mass migration into Europe.

We agree on that.

It began decades ago as a cynical but openly expressed plan in the United States, France, and Germany to bring in low-skilled workers from outside the country to do menial labor while keeping down costs.

I'm not sure this is the real start. Funnily enough, the first generation of those workers integrated very well into society, even without any uniform, or government-led integration.

Economics played a definite role, but then again it has played a significant role in everything human since our very beginning.

But there are so many more factors contributing to the current mess. The way we handle our wars these days. (Presence on the ground versus drone bombing, leaving countries with no stable government whatsoever...) Geopolitics. The way nationality was and is assigned. (The possibility and practise of double nationalities leading to groups of people treating nations in which they lived as just places to earn money, rather than a new and permanent homes.) How national identities are formed and maintained. (How many people of colour are still considered to be foreign by 'natives' even after they were born here? )

We're dealing with stuff that is, well, the result of our history, which is long and messy and complicated. It will take more than a bit of courage from politicians to set this straight. (But it would be a good start.)

I suspect many other such dens could be uncovered among the capitals and great cities of the West, had our leaders the moral courage to expose them.

Exposing them is not enough. They need to be dealth with. The problems with Sint-Jans-Molenbeek have been public knowledge here for many a year, there has just been an equally long political passitivity about it.

[Insidious Rex]

The notion that the immigration history of Europe has been all daffodils and tulips and hand holding up until now is just garbage. Europe's migratory history is of one culture usurping or destroying or breeding out another often with horrendous immediate consequences. And this has been going on for millenia. Ask the indigenous British how they felt about the Romans and then the Anglo Saxons deciding they were going to take over rather than "assimilate". Ask the Anglo Saxons how they felt about the "immigration" of the Normans and how they imposed their terrible franco norman language on the poor Anglo Saxon/British. So the notion that these "swarthy" middle easterners are now the first to ever have any kind of issue with assimilation is just biased nonsense of the highest degree.

This is the norm.

The only difference is that they have bombs and powerful guns now and you dont need an invasion fleet of thousands to do some damage. The answer is NOT "keep them feriners out" if they are from "swarthy" lands (which wouldnt have helped with the Vikings or the Normans by the way). Especially when 99% of those very same foreigners are running FROM the same wack jobs that committed this despicable act. In fact, the fact that (it seems) 7 of 8 of them were French or Belgian citizens who reportedly were familiar with many of the areas they attacked (night clubs, restaurants, theaters) -- BECAUSE THEY HAD FREQUENTED THEM THEMSELVES -- undermines this red herring that its all about the refugees and their refusal to act french and to huddle in the dark, praying to Allah and refuse to interact with the native folk in any way.

So lets not repeat history and pull another Japanese internment because we cant know which ones are the bad ones. And lets not bar people simply based on the color of their skin or where they are coming from. Lets find a way to maximize safety while maintaining our civil liberties. Because surrendering our western ideals and civil liberties is admitting defeat to the likes of the terrorists and what they stand for.

Lets start by focusing on better sharing of intelligence among the various authority groups in Europe. This seemed to have played a significant role in allowing many of these folks to continue to operate openly in the west. The US had similar issues pre-9/11 and made some changes after that attack took places.

[Butterbeer]

@ Insidious - hideously stereotypical and inane

-sorry was all that remained on a copy /paste of a long reply i just lost as for some nobbing reason when i went to reply i had been logged out.
No wonder the board is dead.
was a very long well thought-out reply too.
Meh.

[Insidious Rex]

Course now Im curious how my post was so "hideously stereotypical and inane".

[The last sane person]

^^ Same here.

[Butterbeer]

I'm sorry but i'm intensely passionate about my lack of Conviction.
Read into that what you will.

Truth be told i think that phrase remained as i was spell checking a word.
Fair to say i was pretty pissed at hitting 'reply' to find im logged out and hadn't saved the post.

As i (somewhat vaguely) recall i think i was rather taking the piss out of your potted History of Britain, with a nod at Dutch Tulips, a quip about the Welsh and daffodils, a side order of not mentioning leeks (when mentioning the welsh) ..or sheep...

and an aside about stereotypes, lightly drizzled with some rather mildly disparaging comments about time-travel and the language difficulties that might (practically) be experienced in asking Pre-Roman Britons or Anglo-Saxons their views.

I don't really recall but i think there might have been some comment about their imagined impatience with modern-day 'market research' techniques... and whether, on balance, your assertion that conquest by blood-thirsty rampaging raping hordes is "the Norm" should be allowed to stand, in conmtext of this discussion

Other than that though, it was all good

[Alcuin]

Perhaps the title for this thread should be, “Paris and Brussels”.

“Islam belongs in Europe. ... I am not afraid to say that political Islam should be part of the picture.” — Federica Mogherini, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, the European Union’s de facto foreign minister

If you cannot walk freely in Ithilien, you do not control Ithilien. If you dare not drink from Ithilduin, or walk beneath the marble walls of Minas Ithil, perhaps you should consider whether you are in Isildur’s city or Angmar’s.

But after all, Isildur and Angmar are both Númenóreans. Same difference, n’es pas?