Did Saruman kill Radagast?

[Alcuin]

Valandil put forward this idea in this thread:

Originally Posted by Valandil

It has always seemed ominous to me that the Elves of Rivendell could not find Radagast before the Fellowship departed... and I’ve suspected Saruman of foul play here.

The more I think about it, the more I think Valandil must be right.

Once Gandalf escaped, Radagast would soon discover Saruman’s treachery. Though he had until then been neglectful of his mission, I think this knowledge would urgently have refocused him.

On his own ground, I suspect even Radagast could be dangerous; allied with Gandalf or other members of the White Council, there is no telling what he might help them accomplish: Gandalf indicated Radagast was a shape-shifter, something I don’t believe the other Istari could do in their incarnate forms.

Saruman had to deal with Radagast after Gandalf escaped. I think he may very well have gone so far as to kill the Brown Wizard. It was just too risky for Saruman to leave him loose.

[Valandil]

Yes - Radagast's message had brought Gandalf into Saruman's clutches. But Gandalf's escape, he probably attributed to Radagast as well. He wouldn't have wanted Radagast meddling any further, and Radagast was probably vulnerable to attack.

Not that Saruman took the time away from home to do the job himself. But I suspect he either sent a band of Orcs, or gave Sauron the word to send someone (or forces) to do the job - claiming that he was no longer useful and had become a hindrance. I think more likely Sauron's agents actually carried this out. Maybe the same party of Orcs that helped waylay the Fellowship, maybe a few trolls with a trusted leader. Any number of other agents he had that we might not suspect or know about. The Nine were otherwise engaged, so it couldn't have been one or more of them.

EDIT: BTW - Radagast was not found by those who went searching for him. There was no mention of Rhosgobel being destroyed - so maybe not the trolls. Unless he was caught away from home or lured outside. Probably either of those happened whoever did it - since any sign of a struggle would have been mentioned.

[Earniel]

Nooo, I need a live Radagast afterwards for fanfic and RPG reasons! Damn you, Saruman!

But if Radagast had been killed, wouldn't Gandalf at least have remarked on the murder when he broke Saruman's staff? Killing a member of your own order ought to have been a crime worth mentioning.

[Valandil]

Would Gandalf know?

Maybe he was just out when the Elves came calling. Possible enough.

Or maybe he escaped from those sent to kill him, if that was the case. See there - I could even ENHANCE your fanfic opportunities?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But if Radagast had been killed, wouldn't Gandalf at least have remarked on the murder when he broke Saruman's staff? Killing a member of your own order ought to have been a crime worth mentioning.

…and…

Originally Posted by Valandil

Would Gandalf know?

Surely Gandalf the White would know if Saruman had sunk to such wickedness. Perfidy is one thing, outright murder another. But maybe he didn’t know, or didn’t mention it in order to effect Saruman’s redemption, if possible.

Tolkien is careful never to tell the reader anything except what the characters know. And of the characters, he only lets us see things from the perspective of one character at a time: Frodo, Sam, Pippin, Gimli. Except in The Fellowship of the Ring where we see all things from Frodo’s perspective, the character from whose view we see the story is always the weakest in the group. Only once are we given a brief glance into the mind of Aragorn, at Amon Hen: only from his perspective can we see that small but important section of the story; as soon as Legolas and Gimli find Aragorn weeping beside Boromir’s body, the story centers on Gimli’s perspective. (Note, too, that there is no narrator. Oh, and there is the talking fox!)

If Saruman captured or killed Radagast, but kept it secret, I don’t think we readers would ever know.

I suppose we cannot discount the possibility that upon learning war between Sauron and the West was once more about to commence, Radagast chickened out and fled. That would be total abnegation of his responsibility, and at the presumed end of his labors. We readers would not know of that, either, unless Gandalf or another of the Wise told us. But it would account for Tolkien’s assertion that Radagast “fell� when we know that at least when Gandalf met him near Bree, he still considered him “the honest Radagast.�

Surely Tolkien made some note about the fate of Radagast! Was he killed? Was he captured? Did he flee: was he a coward? If he isn’t puttering around in Birkenstocks in Amsterdam or Seattle, I’d like to know where he is.

But unless he fled immediately, forewarned perhaps by the Eagles, Saruman had to keep him quiet, had to render him harmless, and the only way to make certain of that was to eliminate him.

[Valandil]

When Tolkien says that Radagast "fell" - I believe it was from his purpose of uniting those who would resist Sauron. He got distracted by his own passions and interests, and didn't remain true to the mission. This was likely for the duration of his time on Middle Earth, and didn't preclude him being "honest" in the sense in which Gandalf refers to him.

[Valandil]

Because Radagast was a Maia, would Saruman need to have killed him personally? I wonder about it (and was discussing with Alcuin offline). I believe the Istari were subject to death by any means that could kill another mortal. Perhaps catching them unawares was the difficult part.

Saruman, of course, was eventually killed by Wormtongue. But... he was no longer all that he had been, was he?

When reading The Hobbit - I really feel like Gandalf was in as much mortal danger from the Wolves who had the treed, as were the Dwarves and Bilbo. Or was he not?

My concept is that Saruman would not have wanted to stray so far from home to do the job. Almost certainly not across the Anduin - where Sauron and his forces were more active.

Also - WOULD Saruman have asked Sauron to send someone to take out Radagast - or would he have wanted to do it without Sauron's knowledge?

[Alcuin]

Elves and Men both killed Maiar. In the Fall of Gondolin, Rog, Ecthelion, and Glorfindel are all reported killing Balrogs, and it seems that some of Rog’s followers among the Folk of the Hammer of Wrath killed them, too, “a marvel and dread to the hosts of Melko, for ere that day never had any Balrogs been slain by the hand of Elves or Men,â€� in Book of Lost Tales II. In Lays of Beleriand, Thingol kills Boldog, an Umaia (fallen Maia) in the shape of an Orc. Gil-galad and Elendil, with the assistance of CÃ*rdan, Elrond, and Isildur, killed Sauron, arguably the most powerful of all the Maiar: at least, they would have: the fact that the One Ring remained intact allowed Sauron to regroup because his power was not scattered, though it took him a long time.

So, yes, Elves, Men, and presumably Orcs or Wargs could kill a Wizard like Gandalf, Saruman, or Radagast. Tolkien specifically says they were “clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labors of many long years.� (Unfinished Tales, “Istari�)

Saruman’s best bet would have been to draw Radagast back to Isengard and there imprison or kill him; the problem with this is that the first instinct of Gwaihir the Windlord, the Eagle who rescued Gandalf from Orthanc, would surely be to report this incident to Radagast along with all Gandalf’s accusations against Saruman and the evidence Gwaihir himself discovered.

This brings up a difficult problem: Once Gwaihir reported Gandalf’s rescue to Radagast, then Radagast himself had reason to fear Saruman. Not only might Saruman seek to kill him, but Saruman and his alliance with Sauron were a threat to all Radagast valued, whether or not Radagast had fallen from his true mission. As soon as he learned this, Radagast should have set out for Lórien or Rivendell: Lórien would be closer to his regular haunts. No matter which of the remaining Wise he told, Saruman’s gambit would fail.

But Radagast told no one. Neither Elrond nor Galadriel were forewarned of Saruman’s treachery.

Saruman might be able to find Radagast using his palantÃ*r. Gandalf apparently could not be found this way: Galadriel said that “a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me.â€� Perhaps this was one of Gandalf’s defenses against discovery. If Radagast were not so careful, he might be found this way.

Saruman had to meet Sauron in the palantÃ*r after he dismissed the Nazgûl at the gate of Isengard. The Witch-king would report his words and instructions to Sauron sooner or later: the sooner Saruman presented his side of the story, the better. If he knew where Radagast was, or where he was likely going, it was an easy step in the same direction to betray a fellow Wizard whom he already detested, digging deeper the hole he was already in.

I don’t know how Saruman dispatched Radagast. But it becomes clearer and clearer that he wanted to: in his degraded state of mind, he needed to. And he had to act quickly, without hesitation, or Radagast like Gandalf might escape.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Would Gandalf know?

Gandalf the Grey might not but I doubt that Gandalf the White wouldn't have. At the very least I can't help but feel he would have at least bothered enough to find out what had happened to Radagast, especially since he was then other last remaining member of his order. There was time enough between the last battle and his departure from Middle-earth to see old friends. Someone, somewhere must have known something. The Eagles for starters, Radagast had asked them to bring news to Gandalf in Orthanc and it was Gwaihir himself that went. That ought to mean something.

Or maybe he escaped from those sent to kill him, if that was the case. See there - I could even ENHANCE your fanfic opportunities?

How he survives is of no real importance, I just need him alive at the start of the Fourth Age or I can go and rewrite my original fanfic of Long Lost Leaves.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Surely Gandalf the White would know if Saruman had sunk to such wickedness. Perfidy is one thing, outright murder another. But maybe he didn’t know, or didn’t mention it in order to effect Saruman’s redemption, if possible.

But is there any redemption to be had after a deliberate execution of one of his own order? It is possible that Gandalf didn't know at the time he broke Saruman's staff, and that was the last time they met. But surely he could have learned afterwards and I cannot help but feel Gandalf would at least have said something about Radagast's fate if it was a tragic one.

I suppose we cannot discount the possibility that upon learning war between Sauron and the West was once more about to commence, Radagast chickened out and fled. That would be total abnegation of his responsibility, and at the presumed end of his labors. We readers would not know of that, either, unless Gandalf or another of the Wise told us. But it would account for Tolkien’s assertion that Radagast “fell� when we know that at least when Gandalf met him near Bree, he still considered him “the honest Radagast.�

Gandalf still considered him honest at the time of the Council of Elrond. At that moment Gandalf also says during his imprisonment on Orthanc he had at first thought that Radagast had fallen, here used (as far as I can tell) in the sense that Radagast had chosen Saruman's side. Gandalf goes on to indicate that that was probably what Saruman wanted him to think.

But neither Gandalf or Saruman seemed to think that Radagast would. Gandalf called him too honest; Saruman, a fool with precious little wit. Saruman certainly never offered the chance to rule to Radagast, but he did do so to Gandalf. Gandalf was a threat to Saruman, in way that Radagast never would be. Gandalf was the one who either had to be convinced to play along, or taken out of play immediately, as Saruman tried.

Saruman doesn't think much of Radagast, that much is obvious. If Radagast had posed any danger to him at that time, you can bet Radagast would have been up there on Orthanc with Gandalf lickitysplit. Saruman had ample time to plan that far ahead. It wouldn't have taken much effort either. And if Saruman had any plans to have dealt with Radagast permanently, he probably would have used that as a threat to persuade Gandalf.

There is also no moment after his escape that Gandalf fears for Radagasts well-being. Also when the scouts from Elrond do not find him in his old home of Rhosgobel, does this not appear to cause any concern. Nor is it made clear that the scouts were there specifically to encounter Radagast, and not just because it lay on their scouting route.

It appears neither Saruman or Gandalf had any use for Radagast, nor any concern beyond that point, which is probably what he himself liked best. Nor does Radagast himself appear to take any initiative after learning of Saruman's betrayal, which he ought to have learned soon enough from the Eagles. He doesn't even obviously disappear, he just... goes without mention.

After this part, I remember no more mention of Radagast at all. I dare say that as far as Radagast is concerned, no news is good news. But if there had been any news to be had --perhaps bad i.o.w. if Radagast had been killed, by Saruman's command or otherwise; or good as in Radagast joining in the defense of any of the north-eastern realms or in the destruction of Dul Guldur, I daresay if would have been worthy of recalling somewhere.

So that is my opinion: if anything of note, good or bad, had happened to Radagast after his stage-exit after sending Gandalf to Orthanc it would have been noted. Perhaps even just in the appendices, after all we only learn of the simultaneous assaults on Lórien, Mirkwood and Dale there, as well as the deaths of DaÃ*n and Brand. These do not, as far as I know, occur in the story itself but were noteworthy enough to be listed in the appendices. So too, IMO, would news of Radagast.

But unless he fled immediately, forewarned perhaps by the Eagles, Saruman had to keep him quiet, had to render him harmless, and the only way to make certain of that was to eliminate him.

Unless, he was considered harmless enough already. It would have been otherwise easy enough to waylay the unassuming Radagast as he travelled back to Mirkwood. His home was known. But he wasn't attacked then because he had time to comply with Gandalf's request to enlist the help of any creature Radagast knew.

Although, thinking upon it, it is striking that as a servant of Yavánna, Radagast concern is entirely with the animals, he does not seem to have any real connection with the Ents. Treebeard doesn't mention him at all, but he does know both Saruman and Gandalf. But that is probably another discussion.

Also - WOULD Saruman have asked Sauron to send someone to take out Radagast - or would he have wanted to do it without Sauron's knowledge?

I doubt the relationship between Saruman and Sauron allowed for that sort of thing. Saruman probably didn't want to share that much information of his own dealings with Sauron anyhow. As far as Sauron was concerned, this thing was a one-way deal in which Saruman served Sauron, not the other way around.

But Radagast told no one. Neither Elrond nor Galadriel were forewarned of Saruman’s treachery.

That all depends of timing. If Gwaihir informed Radagast, Gwaihir himself may also have informed others by his own volition or Radagast's. But by that time Gandalf himself may already have passed on the news. It also remains to be seen how well Radagast was connected to the Eldar. Did he even know who to inform? Gwaihir at least knew Galadriel, it was at her request that he set out to locate Gandalf after his fall in Mória.