Could Fingolfin have bested Sauron?

afro-elf · 03-03-2003, 12:34 AM

Could Fingolfin have bested Sauron?

Cosidering that he gave Morgoth seven wounds that NEVER healed. Do think he could have bested the " lesser" Sauron?

***Earniel*** · 03-03-2003, 05:40 AM

I think that depends on the time in which they would fight. In the age when Morgoth ruled, I think Fingolfin could have beaten Sauron in battle if the latter didn't use any of his shape-shifting tricks. But I'm not sure whether Fingolfin could have beaten Sauron when he had grown into power in the third age.

Artanis · 03-03-2003, 06:00 AM

Didn't Morgoth become much weaker after he had poured out lots of his power to mar Arda? IIRC even Manwë was surprised when he discovered how much Morgoth had diminished. Not that the valour of Fingolfin is lessened, Morgoth would still be an overwhelming enemy for an Elf.

Regarding Fingolfin vs. Sauron,: Sauron was strong in the Third Age, he had been a servant of Morgoth, but when Morgoth was conquered he inherited the marring, and the orcs and other foul creatures made by his former master. Still I think Fingolfin would have had a fair chance, when it comes to fighting one to one. Even Isildur managed to cut off Sauron's hand.

Mirahzi · 03-03-2003, 06:22 AM

Hadn't Sauron already been severely wounded (if not defeated) by Elendil and Gil-galad by the time Isildur cut the ring away?

Anyways, in his duel against Morgoth, Fingolfin was extremely outmatched, because his adversary was quite a bit taller than him (and thus he was unable to deliver any mortal wounds). Sauron, on the other hand was a little closer to bite-sized, no?

In regards to pure physical combat, I believe Fingolfin would have a very good chance of defeating Sauron. However, Sauron's power was more evident in his sorcery than in his combat.

Falagar · 03-03-2003, 10:56 AM

Sauron was also more powerful in the second age than Morgoth was in the 1st (can't provide any quote as of yet, but I think I saw it somwhere in HoME 8 or 9).
I'm not really sure on the outcome of the match, it depends on (as has been mentioned) when it would have been fought.

(Herald: "fight of the century! Come and see Fingolfin, High-King of the Noldor in a fight to death with Sauron the Abhorred, Lord of the Nine Nazgûls! Place your bets!")

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-03-2003, 11:49 AM

He WAS???? I can hardly believe that!

Sween · 03-03-2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
Sauron was also more powerful in the second age than Morgoth was in the 1st (can't provide any quote as of yet, but I think I saw it somwhere in HoME 8 or 9).
I'm not really sure on the outcome of the match, it depends on (as has been mentioned) when it would have been fought.

(Herald: "fight of the century! Come and see Fingolfin, High-King of the Noldor in a fight to death with Sauron the Abhorred, Lord of the Nine Nazgûls! Place your bets!")

I think not you may of got confused with the definition of power Sauron in the 3rd age probably had a more clear cut power than morgoth did in the first age because of whom he was facing. A falling Gondor, The Elves were leaving, Rohan only so strong. whilst Morgoth had the Elves at the height of there power in middle earth to manage.

Sauron Vs Fingofin wouldbe an intresting one Sauron is a bit of a crappy adversary at the end of the day he always without fail loses in one on one fight he was better at controling armys than fighting in one. Fingofin would of probably beaten sauron IMHO

markedel · 03-03-2003, 01:03 PM

No Tolkien did state somewhere (my HoME knowledge is sketchy-but I've read it) that Sauron had more power in the 2nd age then Morgoth-by the 1st age Morgoth had tied up a lot of his power in Arda after all.

Insidious Rex · 03-03-2003, 01:04 PM

Are we talking with the ring or without?

Falagar · 03-03-2003, 01:51 PM

Well, he had the Ring in the second age...

Radagast The Brown · 03-03-2003, 04:57 PM

Quote:

originally posted by Falagar
The name kinda gives it away....

Yes, and the ring was created from his powers and contained his powers.

Noahamir · 03-03-2003, 05:03 PM

My vote is on Fingolfin beating Sauron.

If Haun the Hound was able to defeat Sauron in the first age in single combat, I think that is quite possible for other non-maia to do it also.

I don't think the One Ring increased Sauron's individual power over what he had before forging it. It added to his powers only by controlling others, which wouldn't be helpful in a one-on-one combat situation like Fingolfin had with Morgoth.

I think Sauron killed Gil-Galad with a sneak attack but I will have to re-read the book to double check.

Falagar · 03-03-2003, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Yes, and the ring was created from his powers and contained his powers.

Did I say that?

***Khamûl*** · 03-04-2003, 12:03 AM

Yeah, I think Fingolfin could have taken Sauron. If a human and one of the last elven kings could take him down, surely the elf who gave Morgoth himself a good fight could have bested him.

Radagast The Brown · 03-04-2003, 04:24 PM

Quote:

originally posted by Falagar
Did I say that?

Neh. I said yes, that is true, and added that the ring was created from his power and contained his power.

afro-elf · 03-05-2003, 06:40 AM

Quote:

that Sauron had more power in the 2nd age then Morgoth-by the 1st age Morgoth had tied up a lot of his power in Arda after all.

This has been discussed here before. I think that it meant that his political sway was greater than Morgoth. He ( Sauron) had greater sway or over area than his master did.

Utumno · 03-05-2003, 12:14 PM

Maybe you guys are thinking of what is said in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed? I think it is in notes of movites in the Silmarillion, or perhaps elsewhere in the Melkor/Morgoth essay.

To paraphrase : "Sauron was greater, effectively, in the second age than was Morgoth at the end of the First"

I am sure that it says "greater, effectively" the word "powerful" is not used in that statement, but I interpret what is said as meaning that Sauron actually was more powerful at that time.

I believe that if in the same state as he was in when fighting Morgoth, that Fingolfin could have taken down Sauron at the end of the Third age.

afro-elf · 03-06-2003, 04:12 AM

Quote:

am sure that it says "greater, effectively" the word "powerful" is not used in that statement, but I interpret what is said as meaning that Sauron actually was more powerful at that time.

This suggests to me not personal might but effective as in "exerting force or influence"

But the ring adds to one's power of dominion not whoopassness.

So my above about effective power.

But we agree Fin would win

Sween · 03-06-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
This suggests to me not personal might but effective as in "exerting force or influence"

But the ring adds to one's power of dominion not whoopassness.

So my above about effective power.

But we agree Fin would win

the way i think of Sauron is a bit like Hittler here was a man of no real particular power (hey he wasnt very tall was he) whom a good deal of us could beat in a fight but he had massive armies at his control and will.

Sauron would never of been as powerfull as Morgoth. Even Sauron wasnt the greatest fighter (wasnt his style) a balrog was probably better at acctual hyand to hand combat than sauron but this is all opinion.

The fact is Saurons ability to fight wasnt great (he allways lost a point which should not be forgotten) the ring did not inhance his fighing so much is was designed simply to control the minds of his servents.

Fingofin would win

Insidious Rex · 03-06-2003, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sween
The fact is Saurons ability to fight wasnt great (he allways lost a point which should not be forgotten) the ring did not inhance his fighing so much is was designed simply to control the minds of his servents.

Fingofin would win

Hmm maybe Im the only one here who doesnt see Sauron as some big softee who is all hot air. Hes maiar after all. I think he would be quite an opponent nevermind the ring or any of his magical abilities. But that aside the ring wasnt JUST about mind control of his minions. It also amplified his aura of fear and intimidation. Most creatures of middle earth cant even deal with being in the same space as him without being violently and helplessly over come by fear and hopelessness. ala the nazgul. Even great warriors trembled and cowered (and probably peed themselves) when they were around. Everything seemed hopeless. Then when they passed things seemed better somehow. Thats a mighty weapon in my book. Its hard to fight someone when yer too busy having a psychological breakdown after all. Now that being said Fingolfin as angry as he was when he went after Morgoth and being a Noldar may have been able to resist this fear auara of Saurons and make a match out of it. But I think a lot of people are writing poor old Sauron off much to easily.

03-03-2003, 12:34 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Could Fingolfin have bested Sauron? Could Fingolfin have bested Sauron? Cosidering that he gave Morgoth seven wounds that NEVER healed. Do think he could have bested the " lesser" Sauron? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-03-2003, 05:40 AM	#2
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I think that depends on the time in which they would fight. In the age when Morgoth ruled, I think Fingolfin could have beaten Sauron in battle if the latter didn't use any of his shape-shifting tricks. But I'm not sure whether Fingolfin could have beaten Sauron when he had grown into power in the third age. __________________ We are not things.

03-03-2003, 06:00 AM	#3
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Didn't Morgoth become much weaker after he had poured out lots of his power to mar Arda? IIRC even Manwë was surprised when he discovered how much Morgoth had diminished. Not that the valour of Fingolfin is lessened, Morgoth would still be an overwhelming enemy for an Elf. Regarding Fingolfin vs. Sauron,: Sauron was strong in the Third Age, he had been a servant of Morgoth, but when Morgoth was conquered he inherited the marring, and the orcs and other foul creatures made by his former master. Still I think Fingolfin would have had a fair chance, when it comes to fighting one to one. Even Isildur managed to cut off Sauron's hand. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

03-03-2003, 06:22 AM	#4
Mirahzi Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,286	Hadn't Sauron already been severely wounded (if not defeated) by Elendil and Gil-galad by the time Isildur cut the ring away? Anyways, in his duel against Morgoth, Fingolfin was extremely outmatched, because his adversary was quite a bit taller than him (and thus he was unable to deliver any mortal wounds). Sauron, on the other hand was a little closer to bite-sized, no? In regards to pure physical combat, I believe Fingolfin would have a very good chance of defeating Sauron. However, Sauron's power was more evident in his sorcery than in his combat. __________________ "For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor

03-03-2003, 10:56 AM	#5
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Sauron was also more powerful in the second age than Morgoth was in the 1st (can't provide any quote as of yet, but I think I saw it somwhere in HoME 8 or 9). I'm not really sure on the outcome of the match, it depends on (as has been mentioned) when it would have been fought. (Herald: "fight of the century! Come and see Fingolfin, High-King of the Noldor in a fight to death with Sauron the Abhorred, Lord of the Nine Nazgûls! Place your bets!") __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

03-03-2003, 11:49 AM	#6
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	He WAS???? I can hardly believe that! __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-03-2003, 01:03 PM	#8
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	No Tolkien did state somewhere (my HoME knowledge is sketchy-but I've read it) that Sauron had more power in the 2nd age then Morgoth-by the 1st age Morgoth had tied up a lot of his power in Arda after all. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-03-2003, 01:04 PM	#9
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Are we talking with the ring or without? __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

03-03-2003, 01:51 PM	#10
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Well, he had the Ring in the second age... __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

03-03-2003, 05:03 PM	#12
Noahamir Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 29	My vote is on Fingolfin beating Sauron. If Haun the Hound was able to defeat Sauron in the first age in single combat, I think that is quite possible for other non-maia to do it also. I don't think the One Ring increased Sauron's individual power over what he had before forging it. It added to his powers only by controlling others, which wouldn't be helpful in a one-on-one combat situation like Fingolfin had with Morgoth. I think Sauron killed Gil-Galad with a sneak attack but I will have to re-read the book to double check.

03-04-2003, 12:03 AM	#14
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	Yeah, I think Fingolfin could have taken Sauron. If a human and one of the last elven kings could take him down, surely the elf who gave Morgoth himself a good fight could have bested him. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

03-05-2003, 12:14 PM	#17
Utumno Sapling Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 14	Maybe you guys are thinking of what is said in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed? I think it is in notes of movites in the Silmarillion, or perhaps elsewhere in the Melkor/Morgoth essay. To paraphrase : "Sauron was greater, effectively, in the second age than was Morgoth at the end of the First" I am sure that it says "greater, effectively" the word "powerful" is not used in that statement, but I interpret what is said as meaning that Sauron actually was more powerful at that time. I believe that if in the same state as he was in when fighting Morgoth, that Fingolfin could have taken down Sauron at the end of the Third age. Last edited by Utumno : 03-05-2003 at 12:18 PM.

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