were the valar unfair?

afro-elf · 11-19-2001, 09:08 PM

from my understanding only those who made the trip could go to the west

but didn't cirdan stay behind because the valar asked him to?

which was his orginal group,vanyar, noldar. teleri?

if he stayed behind couldn't anyone sail west who made it to the falas?

but weren't the morquendi AND their descendants forbidden
to go west?

were the valar being unfair?

if no one could go west why was cirdan there?

Captain Stern · 11-19-2001, 10:32 PM

Any elf was allowed to go to the West any time they wanted to, that's why Cirdan stayed behind so he could build the boats that would carry them to the blessed realm.

Even the exiled Noldor could return if they repented and were willing to be judged by Manwe.

Bacchus · 11-20-2001, 04:30 AM

Quote:

which was his orginal group,vanyar, noldar. teleri?

Cirdan was a Telerin Elf

Quote:

Even the exiled Noldor could return if they repented and were willing to be judged by Manwe

With the possible exception of Galadriel. There are some indications that she was forbidden to return, because of her status as one of the rebellion's leaders. Her refusal to take the Ring seems to have been her redemption, under this theory. Tolkien was ambiguous on the subject.

Ñólendil · 11-20-2001, 07:05 PM

CS, not all Elves were allowed to take ship, only those belonging to a people that had gone on the Great Journey (the Eldar).

So you see, afro-elf, any Elda could take ship, or being that belonged in the Blessed Realm, or mortal Ringbearers. There was the rare exception of Gimli.

Wayfarer · 11-20-2001, 08:19 PM

Legolas took ship. And he wasn't of the Eldar, but of the Sindar.

I think it was open to all elves. After all, they got there one way or another.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-20-2001, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inoldonil
CS, not all Elves were allowed to take ship, only those belonging to a people that had gone on the Great Journey (the Eldar).

So you see, afro-elf, any Elda could take ship, or being that belonged in the Blessed Realm, or mortal Ringbearers. There was the rare exception of Gimli.

I thought that all Elves were alowed to return to Valinor, even the Exiles that still lived after the ban was lifted with as Bacchus said the acception of Galadriel.

Gimli and the Ringbearers did not go to the Blessed Realm so to speak, but to Tol-Eressea (Sp). It was not in Valinor, but had once been bathed in the light of the Two Trees

Ñólendil · 11-20-2001, 10:39 PM

I had actually forgotten that they went to Tol Eressea, but I am saved since that island in the Third Age was considered to be a part of Aman. If this is not said in The Silmarillion, then it is most certainly said in letters of Tolkien's.

Certainly the Exiled Noldor could return to Aman after the lifting of the Ban (save those who led them from that land, i.e., Galadriel as you said). All I said was that the Elves who never went on the Great Journey could not. This is said in The History of the Silmarillion, either in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar (which I believe you have access to) or Quendi and Eldar in War of the Jewels. They could not because they (the Avari, the Evair) had only chosen: to stay in Middle-earth, they refused the summons.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-21-2001, 12:08 AM

So, what happened to the ones that couldn't go to Aman? Did they fade? If they died, would they go to Aman after Mandos?

Ñólendil · 11-21-2001, 01:43 AM

All Elves who didn't go to Aman eventually do fade, yes.

The spirits of the Elves who 'died' were invited to Mandos, it was open to them to refuse the invitation. I do believe in Laws and Customs it is said that Elves who returned among the living reported many Elves dwelling in Mandos, who had not desired to return. The implications were that many of the Avari did not desire to leave the Halls at all.

afro-elf · 11-21-2001, 07:07 AM

I personally think its unfair that the descendants of the avari did not get a choice

Wayfarer · 11-21-2001, 04:01 PM

It's said that, of the avari that died before the summons of orome and the great journey, almost none chose reincarnation.

Kirinki54 · 11-21-2001, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inoldonil

So you see, afro-elf, any Elda could take ship, or being that belonged in the Blessed Realm, or mortal Ringbearers. There was the rare exception of Gimli.

What was his 'ticket' for going? The small note in Appendices seem a bit thin on explanations?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-21-2001, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54

What was his 'ticket' for going? The small note in Appendices seem a bit thin on explanations?

I am not sure, but I think it was due to his deeds with the Fellowship, and his great friendship with Legoas.

rashbold · 11-23-2001, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by Kirinki54

What was his 'ticket' for going? The small note in Appendices seem a bit thin on explanations?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Sister Golden Hair

I am not sure, but I think it was due to his deeds with the Fellowship, and his great friendship with Lego(l)as.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually it was actually due to the grace given through Galadriel, who was with the demise of Fëanor, the greatest of the Ñoldor. If you are wondering who was considered the greatest of the Eldar, it was Lúthien.

Captain Stern · 11-23-2001, 01:32 PM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are wondering who was considered the greatest of the Eldar, it was Lúthien.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Only if Tolkien would have stuck to his latest ideas, we all know he changed his mind a lot

Kirinki54 · 11-24-2001, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Only if Tolkien would have stuck to his latest ideas, we all know he changed his mind a lot

I think not really; he just discovered the true reasons for what he had written originally.

afro-elf · 03-03-2003, 12:47 AM

didn't eonwe reissue a summons to all elves after the war of wrath

Artanis · 03-03-2003, 05:09 AM

Not to all Elves, but to the Eldar, that is all the Elves that set out on the great journey from Cuivienen, even if they forsook the march afterwards, and their descendants.

afro-elf · 03-05-2003, 06:44 AM

That sucks if your bone head ancestors said "no" ages ago without your consent.

Artanis · 03-05-2003, 07:41 AM

Agree. But that seems to be the deal in Middle-Earth. You bear the status and the consequences of the deeds of your ancestors, good or bad. At the council of Elrond, Aragorn said:

Quote:

And since it seemed fit that Isildur's heir should labour to repair Isildur's fault, I went with Gandalf on the long and hopeless search.

And when Elros chose to be reckoned among Men, he chose for his descendants as well.

11-19-2001, 09:08 PM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	were the valar unfair? from my understanding only those who made the trip could go to the west but didn't cirdan stay behind because the valar asked him to? which was his orginal group,vanyar, noldar. teleri? if he stayed behind couldn't anyone sail west who made it to the falas? but weren't the morquendi AND their descendants forbidden to go west? were the valar being unfair? if no one could go west why was cirdan there? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-19-2001, 10:32 PM	#2
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	Re Any elf was allowed to go to the West any time they wanted to, that's why Cirdan stayed behind so he could build the boats that would carry them to the blessed realm. Even the exiled Noldor could return if they repented and were willing to be judged by Manwe.

11-20-2001, 07:05 PM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	CS, not all Elves were allowed to take ship, only those belonging to a people that had gone on the Great Journey (the Eldar). So you see, afro-elf, any Elda could take ship, or being that belonged in the Blessed Realm, or mortal Ringbearers. There was the rare exception of Gimli. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-20-2001, 08:19 PM	#5
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Legolas took ship. And he wasn't of the Eldar, but of the Sindar. I think it was open to all elves. After all, they got there one way or another. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-20-2001, 10:39 PM	#7
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I had actually forgotten that they went to Tol Eressea, but I am saved since that island in the Third Age was considered to be a part of Aman. If this is not said in The Silmarillion, then it is most certainly said in letters of Tolkien's. Certainly the Exiled Noldor could return to Aman after the lifting of the Ban (save those who led them from that land, i.e., Galadriel as you said). All I said was that the Elves who never went on the Great Journey could not. This is said in The History of the Silmarillion, either in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar (which I believe you have access to) or Quendi and Eldar in War of the Jewels. They could not because they (the Avari, the Evair) had only chosen: to stay in Middle-earth, they refused the summons. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-21-2001, 12:08 AM	#8
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	So, what happened to the ones that couldn't go to Aman? Did they fade? If they died, would they go to Aman after Mandos?

11-21-2001, 01:43 AM	#9
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	All Elves who didn't go to Aman eventually do fade, yes. The spirits of the Elves who 'died' were invited to Mandos, it was open to them to refuse the invitation. I do believe in Laws and Customs it is said that Elves who returned among the living reported many Elves dwelling in Mandos, who had not desired to return. The implications were that many of the Avari did not desire to leave the Halls at all. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-21-2001, 07:07 AM	#10
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	I personally think its unfair that the descendants of the avari did not get a choice __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-21-2001, 04:01 PM	#11
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	It's said that, of the avari that died before the summons of orome and the great journey, almost none chose reincarnation. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-23-2001, 10:35 AM	#14
rashbold Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 26	Originally posted by Kirinki54 What was his 'ticket' for going? The small note in Appendices seem a bit thin on explanations? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Sister Golden Hair I am not sure, but I think it was due to his deeds with the Fellowship, and his great friendship with Lego(l)as. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually it was actually due to the grace given through Galadriel, who was with the demise of Fëanor, the greatest of the Ñoldor. If you are wondering who was considered the greatest of the Eldar, it was Lúthien. __________________ Rashbold, Lambengolmo Rómello

11-23-2001, 01:32 PM	#15
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	RE ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are wondering who was considered the greatest of the Eldar, it was Lúthien. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Only if Tolkien would have stuck to his latest ideas, we all know he changed his mind a lot

03-03-2003, 12:47 AM	#17
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	didn't eonwe reissue a summons to all elves after the war of wrath __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-03-2003, 05:09 AM	#18
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Not to all Elves, but to the Eldar, that is all the Elves that set out on the great journey from Cuivienen, even if they forsook the march afterwards, and their descendants. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

03-05-2003, 06:44 AM	#19
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	That sucks if your bone head ancestors said "no" ages ago without your consent. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

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