Orcs and Goblins

The Wizard from Milan · 02-20-2005, 02:29 AM

In the LotR the evil minions are mainly Orcs, while in the Hobbits they are Goblins.
I am pretty sure Goblins are mentioned at least once in the LotR (but I would not remember where).
My question is: are Goblins and Orcs just a different name for the same thing? Or are they two different races? What do we know about the "genetic pool" of the two races? (i.e. does one descend from the other?)

Elemmírë · 02-20-2005, 02:39 AM

Ooo! You've a dog avvie! How many animal avvies do we have here now anyway?

I think they're the same thing. In the index of the Letters it says: Goblins, see Orcs...

Last Child of Ungoliant · 02-20-2005, 10:30 AM

i think it mentions in the hobbit something along the lines of the orcs being the big goblins of the mountains, but i could be wrong

Twista · 02-20-2005, 10:31 AM

Yes, they are the same thing essentially.

Goblins was sometimes the name given for the orcs that dwelled in the mountains..

Lefty Scaevola · 02-20-2005, 11:39 AM

Same thing; representations of different laguages. Orc (Orch) is representative of the Anduniac word, similar to the Sindarin word and Nandorin word (Yrch) and related to the Black Speech (which adopted some Sindarin forms) word (Uruk). Goblins (and in the hobbit, Hob-Goblins for large ones) seems to be representative of the hobbit word, possibly felated to the language of the Eorlingas. (of course, in this world, the reason is that JRRT used goblins in The Hobbit, and wanted a new word in LoTR)

The Gaffer · 02-21-2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

possibly felated to the language of the Eorlingas

No wonder hobbits and men became sundered.

me9996 · 03-26-2005, 09:37 PM

Er.. They seem to be diffrent but JRR Tolken said they were the same...

Morgoth the Elfbit · 03-31-2005, 11:35 PM

well the reeason they seem the same me9996 is because the Hobbit is a childrens books. I love it and almsot love it more but it is written for a younger audience where as LOTR was much more grown up so the orcs became less bumbling idiots to heartless cruel killers. THats why. But yes its just different name same beast.

Halbarad of the Dunedain · 04-01-2005, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Same thing; representations of different laguages. Orc (Orch) is representative of the Anduniac word, similar to the Sindarin word and Nandorin word (Yrch) and related to the Black Speech (which adopted some Sindarin forms) word (Uruk). Goblins (and in the hobbit, Hob-Goblins for large ones) seems to be representative of the hobbit word, possibly felated to the language of the Eorlingas. (of course, in this world, the reason is that JRRT used goblins in The Hobbit, and wanted a new word in LoTR)

The language issue was indeed part of the misunderstanding of Orcs and Goblins. As most have already said, or inferd, Goblins is not a different race of Orc just a different type. The orcs that were of the mountains became known as Goblins as they became seperated from orcs, just as the men of Rohan and the men of Gondor. In the chapters that deal with Merry and Pippen on their journy to Fangorn we see that there are different dialects between orcs(and Goblins) which would suggest that they lived in different social regions.

me9996 · 04-01-2005, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

The language issue was indeed part of the misunderstanding of Orcs and Goblins. As most have already said, or inferd, Goblins is not a different race of Orc just a different type. The orcs that were of the mountains became known as Goblins as they became seperated from orcs, just as the men of Rohan and the men of Gondor. In the chapters that deal with Merry and Pippen on their journy to Fangorn we see that there are different dialects between orcs(and Goblins) which would suggest that they lived in different social regions.

But... Oh well... If s/he thinks this I supose I can't make Halbarad think otherwise...

Farimir Captain of Gondor · 02-27-2006, 02:03 PM

Okay, so orcs and goblins are the same just live in different places and speak a different language. Got it. My question is, and please dont bite my head off for this, but werent orcs once elves? I may have gotten this info from the movie but the people who wrote it had some knowlege of the books and I don't think they would just make that up for the movie. Would they?

If this is true they would live forever too right? If so, its safe to assume that some of them fought at the War of The Last Allience and The War of the Ring? Im sorry i cant seem to find my books to look this up and cant remember reading anything about this.

P.S. I would like to thank Spock for helping me find the right place to put this.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 02-27-2006, 03:19 PM

it is possible that orcs(goblins) were bred from the avari or possibly some of the eldar, but it is also possible that they were bred from the atani, in the sil, there is mainly the elf version of descent, but in UT (IIRC) there is mention of perhaps the man version, of course it is entriely possioble that orcs came from both avari/eldar andatani, which is the belief that i hold to

Spock · 02-27-2006, 03:54 PM

IIR-Orcs were bred by Melkor in Utummo in the 1st Age. They were bred in mockery of Elves.
Hobbits called them goblins.

Farimir Captain of Gondor · 02-27-2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock

IIR-Orcs were bred by Melkor in Utummo in the 1st Age. They were bred in mockery of Elves.
Hobbits called them goblins.

so the answer to all my questions would be no?

Spock · 02-27-2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

so the answer to all my questions would be no?

Mostly. There are so many excellent LOTR people on this board (and other boards) that may remember different obscure things. then too we all have our own particular sources of reference. My answer is the best I know of from my reading and experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

If this is true they would live forever too right? If so, its safe to assume that some of them fought at the War of The Last Allience and The War of the Ring? Im sorry i cant seem to find my books to look this up and cant remember reading anything about this.

lastly it is said "they did not die naturally".

Hope this helps a bit.

arvedui_last_king · 02-27-2006, 04:16 PM

One of Tolkiens later conceptions, mentioned in Morgoths' Ring, is that orcs were just beasts, with know consciousness and in the shape of the children of Iluvater to mock them. I also think the word goblin is just an english translation of the sindarin word orch, plural yrch and Goblins = Orcs.

Gordis · 02-27-2006, 05:15 PM

Tolkien earler conceptions seem to me more appealing, just because they are more consistent with what we see in his published works: the Hobbit and the LOTR. Ugluk, the chief of Isengarders, is a competent leader, who didn't abandon his "lads" and died gloriously in a single combat against Eomer. And Grishnakh from Mordor is a sort of Secret Service guy, wicked and vicious. Any one of them could be called a "beast without consciousness".

As to Faramir's question, Orcs were bred by Morgoth from cruelly twisted elves - that is Silmarillion concept.

In later works (Myths transformed) Tolkien revised this conception, naming lesser Maiar, beasts and finally Men as the source for orcs. In later case he had to shift the time of Men's awakening much earlier (not on the first day of the Sun). But still the idea:

Quote:

It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.

returns again and again.

Funny how in his later works he tried to make Elves holier and holier, seriously purged Galadriel's story etc.

Orc immortality is a very difficult question. I have argued myself many times that they should be immortal, like Elves.
But in Myths Transformed it is written:

Quote:

They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.

Farimir Captain of Gondor · 02-27-2006, 05:22 PM

Wow, thanx for all the info guys.

Spock · 02-27-2006, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Wow, thanx for all the info guys.

To paraphrase Ron Weasley: "we're scary; brilliant, but scary".

Gordis · 02-27-2006, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock

To paraphrase Ron Weasley: "we're scary; brilliant, but scary".

I know I am scary! But I doubt I am brilliant...

Actually, if some more scary guys come here, the topic is such, that we can be at one another's throats for a month.

Really, Faramir, it was a very difficult and controversial question!

02-20-2005, 02:29 AM	#1
The Wizard from Milan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 421	Orcs and Goblins In the LotR the evil minions are mainly Orcs, while in the Hobbits they are Goblins. I am pretty sure Goblins are mentioned at least once in the LotR (but I would not remember where). My question is: are Goblins and Orcs just a different name for the same thing? Or are they two different races? What do we know about the "genetic pool" of the two races? (i.e. does one descend from the other?)

02-20-2005, 02:39 AM	#2
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Ooo! You've a dog avvie! How many animal avvies do we have here now anyway? I think they're the same thing. In the index of the Letters it says: Goblins, see Orcs... __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

02-20-2005, 10:31 AM	#4
Twista Orodruin's Flame Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kananaskis, AB Posts: 1,194	Yes, they are the same thing essentially. Goblins was sometimes the name given for the orcs that dwelled in the mountains.. __________________ Council of Entmoot - Foreign Affairs Minister - 2004-05 Visit the Ye Olde Avatar Shop and The New One Dont tell me what I cannot do Two men are on a Island, they both see a "monster", one sees a bright light, and the other sees a dark cloud My name bares no reference to the music artist.

02-20-2005, 11:39 AM	#5
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Same thing; representations of different laguages. Orc (Orch) is representative of the Anduniac word, similar to the Sindarin word and Nandorin word (Yrch) and related to the Black Speech (which adopted some Sindarin forms) word (Uruk). Goblins (and in the hobbit, Hob-Goblins for large ones) seems to be representative of the hobbit word, possibly felated to the language of the Eorlingas. (of course, in this world, the reason is that JRRT used goblins in The Hobbit, and wanted a new word in LoTR) __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 02-20-2005 at 11:41 AM.

03-31-2005, 11:35 PM	#8
Morgoth the Elfbit Hobbit Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: I split my time between Mordor and your Imagination Posts: 30	well the reeason they seem the same me9996 is because the Hobbit is a childrens books. I love it and almsot love it more but it is written for a younger audience where as LOTR was much more grown up so the orcs became less bumbling idiots to heartless cruel killers. THats why. But yes its just different name same beast. __________________ Newly Reincarnated from Haradrim Here is my permanent apology for off-topicing. If I do it, which i will, I am sorry. I feel bad about it but being an elfbit messes with your head and things get wonky so spamming is almost inevitable. There will be good replys but for when I do off-topic I am deeply sorry. Offical title: Morgoth the Elfbit: Un-Official Court Jester of the Entmoot At Your Service.... BOW TO ME! Miranda Otto is hot! I Kinda Like Feanor.... (meep)

02-20-2005, 10:30 AM	#3
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	i think it mentions in the hobbit something along the lines of the orcs being the big goblins of the mountains, but i could be wrong

02-27-2006, 02:03 PM	#11
Farimir Captain of Gondor Spaceman Spiff Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In the belly of a Firefly, living in Serenity is where you'll find me Posts: 1,438	Okay, so orcs and goblins are the same just live in different places and speak a different language. Got it. My question is, and please dont bite my head off for this, but werent orcs once elves? I may have gotten this info from the movie but the people who wrote it had some knowlege of the books and I don't think they would just make that up for the movie. Would they? If this is true they would live forever too right? If so, its safe to assume that some of them fought at the War of The Last Allience and The War of the Ring? Im sorry i cant seem to find my books to look this up and cant remember reading anything about this. P.S. I would like to thank Spock for helping me find the right place to put this. __________________ Do you hear that?

02-27-2006, 03:19 PM	#12
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	it is possible that orcs(goblins) were bred from the avari or possibly some of the eldar, but it is also possible that they were bred from the atani, in the sil, there is mainly the elf version of descent, but in UT (IIRC) there is mention of perhaps the man version, of course it is entriely possioble that orcs came from both avari/eldar andatani, which is the belief that i hold to

02-27-2006, 03:54 PM	#13
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	IIR-Orcs were bred by Melkor in Utummo in the 1st Age. They were bred in mockery of Elves. Hobbits called them goblins. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

02-27-2006, 04:16 PM	#16
arvedui_last_king Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The United Kingdom of Ireland Posts: 30	One of Tolkiens later conceptions, mentioned in Morgoths' Ring, is that orcs were just beasts, with know consciousness and in the shape of the children of Iluvater to mock them. I also think the word goblin is just an english translation of the sindarin word orch, plural yrch and Goblins = Orcs. __________________ God, who made thee mighty, Make thee mightier yet.

02-27-2006, 05:22 PM	#18
Farimir Captain of Gondor Spaceman Spiff Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In the belly of a Firefly, living in Serenity is where you'll find me Posts: 1,438	Wow, thanx for all the info guys. __________________ Do you hear that?

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