2980: Could Aragorn, as "Thorongil" have claimed the throne of Gondor?

[Valandil]

In Appendix A, we have the account of 'Thorongil' (actually Aragorn under an assumed name) coming into the service of Ecthelion, father of Denethor and Ruling Stewart of Gondor - and winning great honor and esteem in his service - and being near him in counsel. His last act in this role was a raid on Umbar to weaken Gondor's old enemy to the south.

What if he had claimed the throne at that time?

Could he have pulled it off? Would the thought cross his mind? Here he had just made this successful raid on Umbar, was in the full confidence and favor of Ecthelion, the Steward. What if he had returned to Minas Tirith and revealed his heritage at that point... and further, claimed the crown of Gondor as the direct heir of Elendil and Isildur?

He then would have met Elrond's conditions for marrying Arwen.

Did he 'know' that his time had not yet come? Would it not seem - at the time - like a ripe opportunity?

He would not have known how Sauron was to be defeated... Gandalf did not yet suspect the ring Bilbo held in the Shire to be The One Ring of Power. So... all the more reason, it seems to me.

What do the rest of you think?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
What if he had claimed the throne at that time?

Then Sauron would have come forth to destroy him. Perhaps not at once, but Sauron would have put much of his strength to get rid of an heir of Isildur. Aragorn had to remain hidden, and wait for the right moment.

[Vicky]

What "proof" did he have at that time? Now it was very clear for everyone: he used the palantir, made the Dead Men follow him, cured people,...

And even if the people had believed him, he wasn't ready. He carried the burdon of what Isildur had done (or hadn't done, depending on how you see it) so he had to get rid of that before he had enough courrage to become King.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Valandil
Did he 'know' that his time had not yet come? Would it not seem - at the time - like a ripe opportunity?

I am guessing at three reasons. Firstly, he knew he was not ready personally despite his success as Thorongil. Secondly, the political situation in Gondor would not have been in his favour, military victories or not. Thirdly, he had not yet met Arwen at Cerin Amroth - something that would add enormous incentive as well as confidence.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Several points:
1) while it's true Aragorn and Arwen were engaged upon his leaving the south, they had met 29 years earlier, and it's very possible to imagine him as king of Gondor/Arnor impressing Arwen and her daddy.
2) I'm not convinced the political situation in Gondor was all that unfavorable for Thorongil:
"When they came back to Pelargir, to men's grief and wonder, he would not return to Minas Tirith, where great honour awaited him......There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a loss, unless it were to Denethor"
This indicates he might have had considerable popular support. The key might have been Ecthelion's actions. Ecthelion died four years later, but was presumably still in firm control. If he had accepted proof of Thorongil's ancestry (Thorongil had already proven his ability to lead Gondor militarily) Aragorn might well have been accepted. Recall Denethor's observation to Boromir about not taking on the title of King later (no doubt Ecthelion had instilled this sense of duty into Denethor).
3) As to Sauron overwhelming Gondor if Aragorn declared himself, a---without the ring a King, as opposed to a steward, might not especially worry Sauron. And b---consider a World War II analogy, England was not as prepared in 1938 as later to oppose Hitler, but Germany was also not as developed militarily in 1938.
Almost 40 years before the war of the Ring the "balance of power" was (arguably) less in Mordor's favor then it later became.
Recall Gandalf's observation at the Last Debate about how in the past there had been a marked lack of initiative to do anything but await attacks, suggesting his wish for a more aggressive policy in the past by Gondor.

[Count Comfect]

A thought - admittedly, Thorongil was popular in Gondor, but would he have been if he'd come back from a military victory and said he was king? It would look awfully like a powergrab/coup instead of a rightful heir claiming his own, regardless of his bona fides.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Count Comfect
It would look awfully like a powergrab/coup instead of a rightful heir claiming his own, regardless of his bona fides.

I agree with this point. In fact I can imagine Denethor gathering people loyal to him in order to oppose Thorongil's claim and thus starting a civil war in Gondor.

Also remember that the sword of Elendil was not yet reforged; I think Aragorn needed that for emotional support as well as he needed it to prove his ancestry.

Also, Aragorn wouldn't enter Minas Tirith before the defeat of Sauron: not because he feared Sauron might overwhelm him (In fact that would have served the same purpose as the battle they fought before the Black Gate); but because he didn't want to distract the people from the task of fighting Sauron. In a way, he realised that his claim would cause confusion in Gondor.

Another point: as Thorongil, Aragorn was still young and needed a lot of experience in the world. I guess he realised that, too and decided to back off for a while.

[Dwarven Sen]

I would have done it if I was him. Practically and with all thoughts of Elvish magic and insight aside, the time was ripe.

Traditionally most nations whose main hobby is war will only respect a leader that has not only proven himself as a great warrior and commander of troops, but has achieved a great victory. Aragorn had done this. He would have had the support of the army and the present ruler. Denethor was in no position to contest his right to rule, and the Steward politically, no matter what his beliefs, would be expected to publically acknowledge the King.
It would have been better for Gondor too.

[Valandil]

Good to see that at least SOME others see the possibility.

I'm NOT saying it would have worked out for the best, but just raising the question about the following:

1. Did the thought cross his mind?
2. Would that thought have been appealing?
3. If he tried to 'go for it' - what was the chance he could have pulled it off?

I know he hadn't yet met Arwen for the second time - the time when they basically became 'betrothed' - but I think their earlier meeting itself had at least given him reason to hope - and he had the allure of meeting the provisions Elrond had set for him. Would he wonder about just 'walking away' from what seemed a good chance to fulfill them? And while he was not yet the 'more mature' Numenorean man of 88 he was to be when he DID actually become king, he was 49... not a 'lad' by any means - and probably already among the wisest and most powerful of Men in all Middle-earth. Nor do I think he lacked in confidence.

As for proofs... I doubt he would have carried Anduril with him at all times, but he could have made his claim and sent to Elrond for 'proofs'... which could include the sword, as well as the scepter of Andunie and the Star of Elendil... along with as many 'good references' as might be requested. Also - he probably DID bear the Ring of Barahir with him - since he gave that to Arwen when they later met - before he returned to Rivendell.

One possible 'strike' he had against him is that a similar claim by Arvedui had been rejected in 1944... and Aranarth, son of Arvedui, was not even considered when Earnil went MIA responding to the Witch-King's challenge - in what, about 2050? However, maybe by this time the people of Gondor were yearning for a King... and he had proven himself as an able leader of their forces, and an able counsellor to the Steward Ecthelion, whose favor he had. He was not quite the 'outsider' that Arvedui might have seemed (even though married to Ondoher's daughter).

Frankly, I think he could have possibly pulled it off... but that he then would not have been able to do the things he ended up doing which led to victory in the War of the Ring. So... either things would have developed differently - with different people 'stepping up' - or all would eventually be lost.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Valandil
One possible 'strike' he had against him is that a similar claim by Arvedui had been rejected in 1944... and Aranarth, son of Arvedui, was not even considered when Earnil went MIA responding to the Witch-King's challenge - in what, about 2050? However, maybe by this time the people of Gondor were yearning for a King... and he had proven himself as an able leader of their forces, and an able counsellor to the Steward Ecthelion, whose favor he had. He was not quite the 'outsider' that Arvedui might have seemed (even though married to Ondoher's daughter).

To my mind, this is the key. Aragorn would be mindful of Arvedui's fate. It wouldn't look too good if the faithful lieutenant turned around at the end of his ticker-tape parade and said "gies the Crown then".

On a more spooky level, the role of prophesy in LOTR should not be underestimated. The story of the "Elessar" in Unfinished Tales is really interesting: Galadriel's gift to Aragorn was a clear symbol that the time was ripe.

[Draken]

Originally posted by Valandil
I know he hadn't yet met Arwen for the second time - the time when they basically became 'betrothed' - but I think their earlier meeting itself had at least given him reason to hope - and he had the allure of meeting the provisions Elrond had set for him.

I'm not sure if a chap would make major policy decisions just to get his hands on the most beautiful maiden of the Age.

Um, what am I saying, of COURSE he would.

Sorry, carry on!

[Aragorn_iz_cool]

And even if the people had believed him, he wasn't ready. He carried the burdon of what Isildur had done (or hadn't done, depending on how you see it) so he had to get rid of that before he had enough courrage to become King

This is the LOTR books forum *sigh*


I agree with the person who said Denathor would start a civil war, and if Rohan can be used as an example, civil wars are very bad in ME, and Souron would have squashed Gondor like a little bug.

[Valandil]

But Denethor wasn't yet Steward... his father Ecthelion was. And Ecthelion LIKED Thorongil.

Can't you see it?:

"You're wise in cousel, you lead our forces to victory at Umbar... AND you're the heir of Elendil and Isildur?!??"

[Count Comfect]

You're wise in cousel, you lead our forces to victory at Umbar... AND you're the heir of Elendil and Isildur?!??"

That's the whole problem, though. It sounds so farfetched that even nice old Ecthelion would have problems buying it.

[olsonm]

Also, Aragorn left Gondor to scout the enemy and His allies "where the stars are strange". This was an essential part of his preperation. He knew the time was not yet ripe.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Valandil
Can't you see it?:

"You're wise in cousel, you lead our forces to victory at Umbar... AND you're the heir of Elendil and Isildur?!??"

But then again, Arvedui fitted (and used) that last criteria too and look how far it got him.

Besides, if I was part of the Gondorean Council I'd be wanting to know where the catch was...

[Dwarven Sen]

What was the catch? Was there ever one when he actually got coronated, apart from the near massacre-ing of the Gondorian forces?