The Silmarillion:Valaquenta

[Sister Golden Hair]

I also wonder about other evil creatures such as Ungoliant. It seems to me that she was not in league with Morgoth, but would aid him in evil deeds for a price. Do you think she could have ever been bribed by the good guys to do anything against Morgoth or other enemies? She just seemed to be out for herself. Were there any other independent evil free agents?

[Elvellon]

What little we see of Ungoliant portrays it as a cunning beast. It probably was also an amoral creature, it’s sole concern being the satiation of its hunger. I doubt it would be controllable, in the end it always wanted more, and more.

It may be relevant that the originally Ungoliant was supposed to be a servant of Morgoth, grown too strong for him to control.

[Rían]

*hee hee*

Thanks, Lief! Sorry, SGH!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
*hee hee*

Thanks, Lief! Sorry, SGH!

That's ok, because Lief is right here on my little list.

[Rían]

OMGoodness, this is TOO fun!

Good question, SGH, about other "independant" evil forces. Old Man Willow pops into my head, and the tentacle creature in the water outside the gate of Moria ... also, on the good side, Bombadil.

I like your summary of Ungoliant, Elvellon - her "sole concern being the satiation of its hunger". What a fitting end she had - eating herself! I can't find it in the Sil offhand - is it in there, or is it in HoME somewhere?

[Rían]

2. Opinions on temporary rebellion of Ossë? Contrast to the rebellions of Aulë and Melkor.

I really like the little paragraph on Ossë's rebellion and repentance. Ossë apparently went over to Melkor's allegiance and started the "great tumults in the sea that wrought ruin to the lands." But then his spouse, Uienen, at the request of Aulë (hmm, just noticed that it was Aulë that asked! Interesting ... I wonder if the dwarf-making episode had taken place yet - I don't think it's clear either way) :

"restrained Ossë and brought him before Ulmo; and he was pardoned and returned to his allegiance, to which he has remained faithful."

Compared to Melkor, who doesn't repent of his rebellion.
I really like the story of Aulë creating the dwarves, and how he offered even to destroy "the work of my presumption", and then Iluvatar gave it to him, because Aulë was willing to let go of it. But that comes in another chapter...

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

I can't find it in the Sil offhand - is it in there, or is it in HoME somewhere?

It can be found in chapter nine, “of the flight of the Noldor,� page 81 (of the Silmrillion illustrated by Ted Nasmith. Wonderful paintings!)

[Rían]

Thanks!

I think you and SGH have the same Sil - I'm SO jealous! Mine is a cheap paperback that is in several pieces...

[Elvellon]

Ahah! My fist Silmarillion is also in such a state (I had to look nearly all bookstores in town to find it, I had became enthralled by Tolkien’s universe after reading LotR, and specially by the elves, so I had to know more about them. I still have that old book).

About your fourth question:

Of the Enemies:

4. Any further comments on Melkor/Sauron? What do you think of the comment in Morgoth's Ring comparing Morgoth's "brand of evil" to Sauron's? From MR, "Myths Transformed:

They were inherently different. One could say that Morgoth’s doom was Chaos as Sauron’s was Order.

Originally Morgoth wanted to Create, later, as he became more and more corrupt, he became solely motivated by destruction, virtually embodying Entropy.

Sauron’s fall, on the other hand, was motivated by a wish of control. He didn’t want to destroy; he was just obsessed with control and Order. How he ever perceived Morgoth as an opportunity for greater Order is a good question.

Answering SGH question about other independent Evils I would say that, to me, the later Sauron is the greatest independent of all.

[Rían]

Hey, where's all the other Sil posters?

Should we just move on to the next chapter? I know this chapter's not too lively...

[Keith K]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...I know this chapter's not too lively...

I couldn't say it any better myself!

[Sister Golden Hair]

At the end of the three weeks it will be time for the next chapter. I am very disappointed at the lack of interest in the project, and the lack of volunteers taking chapter assignment.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Well, if Tolkien had kept a secret manuscript about the sex life of the Valar, we would have had some livly discussion.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Was anything wriiten, besides on Morgoth, on the tendency of Auniur who wore a particular body for a long while to get deeply attached to it? The balrog which fled to Moria reatained his, when all logic of fleeing and hiding would have said change to something less conspicuous.

[azalea]

I think that's a facinating concept, an immortal being "attached" to it's body in more ways than one. It's like when Gandalf became the White, how he seemed to forget who he had been before. I like to try to visualize the Valar, and I have trouble with Ulmo, for some reason. The others I have a general mental picture of (I don't know if the pictures are "right"), and I try to imagine what it would be like for them to experience "life," as in inhabiting a bodily form, and yet be basically "gods." That's why it really does remind me of the Greek pantheon. Maybe I can't picture Ulmo as well because it states that he seldom inhabits a body! Duh! I just thought of that.

[Artanis]

I find it hard to believe that the Ainur would attach so strongly to their physical shapes. Their bodies was not a part of them, but more like raiment, and they chose their shape to be in likeness to the Children of Iluvatar, only far more beautiful and great in splendour.

[Artanis]

I just re-read this chapter, and noticed a few lines telling about how Manwë's and Varda's abilities were enhanced when they were together:

When Manwë there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist, and through darkness, and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth.

Perhaps not very significant, but it tells about a strong relationship, and I found it quite uplifting.

Another little detail I noticed: It says of Melian that "Nightingales sang about her wherever she went". Interesting then, that Beren should call her daughter by the name Tinuviel, which means Nightingale. Coincidence, or not?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Not a coincidence. Being around her mother, and thus the nightengales, she would have had much exposure and oportunity to aquire musical motif and technique for the nightengales, held be be among the very beng songbirds.

[Rían]

I've never heard a nightingale sing before - has anyone else? I've always heard that they are supposed to be very beautiful, though. Wasn't there a story about a Chinese emperor that heard a nightingale and had one sing for him? I can't recall the details, I think he was sick or something.

I like the relationship aspect of your quote too, Artanis - that's why I put together that sibling/spouse list, which I found interesting. Did you?

I don't remember any of the other Valar becoming attached to their bodies like Morgoth did. I suppose Melian did, however, so she could wed Thingol. But more on that in chpt. 4.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
that's why I put together that sibling/spouse list, which I found interesting. Did you?

Yes, and I agree with everything you said when you were Meriadoc.