The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

[Cirdan]

"Who is Iluvatar?" said Eriol. "Was he of the Gods?"
"Nay," said Rumil, "that he was not, for he made them. Iluvatar is the Lord of Always who dwells beyond the world; who made it and is not of it or in it, but loves it."

- The Book of Lost Tales

'Lo! After the departure of the Ainur and their vassalage all was quiet for a great age while Iluvatar watched. The all of a sudden he said: "Behold I love the world, and it is a hall of play for Eldar and Men who are may beloved. But when the Eldar come they will be the fairest, and the most lovely of all things by far; and deeper in the knowledge of beauty, and happier than Men. But to Men I will give a new gift, and a greater." Therefore he devised that Men should have a free virtue whereby within the limits of the powers and substances and changes of the world they might fashion and design their life beyond even the original Music of the Ainur that is fate to all things else. This he did that of their operations everything should in shape and deed be completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. Lo! Even the Eldar have found to our sorrow that Men have a strange power for good or ill and for turning things despite Gods and Fairies to their mood in the world; so that we say: "Fate may not conquer the Children of Men, but yet are they strangely blind, whereas their joy should be great."

Now Iluvatar knew that Men set amid turmoils of the Ainur would not be ever of a mind to use that gift in harmnoy with his intent, but thereto he said: "These too in their time shall find that all they have done, even the ugliest of deeds and works, redounds at the end only to my glory, and is tributary to the beauty of my world." Yet the Ainursay that the thought of Men is at times a grief even to Iluvatar; wherefore in the giving of that gift of freedom was their envy and amazement, the patience of Iluvatar at its misuse is a matter of the greatest marvelling to both Gods and Fairies. It is however of one with this gift of power that the Children of Men dwell only a short time in the world alive, yet do not perish utterly for ever, whereas the Eldar dwell til the Great End unless they be slain or waste to grief (for to both of these deaths are they sublect), nor doth eld subdue their strength, exceptit may be in ten thousand centuries; and dying they are reborn in their children, so that their number minishes not, nor grows. Yet while the Sons of Menwill after the passing of things of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Iluvatarhas devised for the Eldar beyond the world's end he has not revealed even to the Valar, and Melko has not discovered it'

- The Book of Lost Tales

These two passages, the first before the Music of the Ainur and the latter after, give a somewhat different nature to the tale than the final version. The first passage seams to be a effort to differentiate Iluvatar from the god of Tolkien's own faith. While it is clear that he sought to create a unique story of creation, there is little doubt of the heavy influence on his writing of his own faith.

The second passage is an interesting detail of the nature of Men. Here they are the only beings free from the fates. Yet even they cannot escape the eventual destiny of Middle Earth. This fatalism of the earlier version of the story is quite a bit stronger than the final version. Whether it is an edit of literary content or a change of philosophy to the final version in the Silmarillion is impossible to say. Many of the stories in the Book(s) of Lost Tales are much greater in detail. The stories are also told as a narrative within a larger tale. If you enjoyed the Silmarillon you with like the BoLTs as well. The Tales of Tuor, Gondolin, and Earendil are much greater in detail than those given in the Silmarillon. I highly reccommend the read.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Cirdan
The first passage seams to be a effort to differentiate Iluvatar from the god of Tolkien's own faith. While it is clear that he sought to create a unique story of creation, there is little doubt of the heavy influence on his writing of his own faith.

Isn't it interesting how two people interpret things totally differently? For me, the first passage only emphasizes Ilúvatar's total omni-ness, to coin a word (omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, etc.) by showing how He is above the "gods". This makes Him even more like "the God of Tolkien's own faith". When Tolkien uses "gods", plural, he means the Valar, who are below Ilúvatar in both essence and in the fact that they are His creations. To re-quote a footnote of Letter #156 (I don't know how you can stand to wait for Christmas for Letters, Cirdan! It's such a great read!):

from JRRT's letters
There is only one 'god': God, Eru Iluvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures.

]Originally posted by Cirdan
If you enjoyed the Silmarillon you with like the BoLTs as well. The Tales of Tuor, Gondolin, and Earendil are much greater in detail than those given in the Silmarillon. I highly reccommend the read.

I love "The Fall of Gondolin" in BoLT II. I really like Tuor's character, and am looking forward to when we reach his section in the discussion.

Is Unfinished Tales part of HoME? I have that one, too, and there's lots of little goodies about ME that really fill in some LoTR areas, like "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields", where it tells in much greater detail what happened to Isildur.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Isn't it interesting how two people interpret things totally differently? For me, the first passage only emphasizes Ilúvatar's total omni-ness, to coin a word (omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, etc.) by showing how He is above the "gods". This makes Him even more like "the God of Tolkien's own faith". When Tolkien uses "gods", plural, he means the Valar, who are below Ilúvatar in both essence and in the fact that they are His creations.

If he is "not in it" or "of it" then he is not omnipresent. Also, the additon of polytheistic elements such as a pantheon of living gods that exist in the world is pretty different from Christian theology. It is definately a blend of some or the Norse and Greek gods with the monotheistic god of omnipotence and love (not like Jupiter). I think Tolkien wanted to create a god that was not as great or greater than his own. Again what he intended to be published and what was postumously published as a precursor to the finished story. Here the excerpt and the quote are obviously incongruent as angels are not gods. The fact that the gods are oriented towards forces of nature tends to lend more credence to the polytheist aspect of the ME mythology.

Is Unfinished Tales part of HoME?

The first four were issued as HoME and the next set as the History of the Lord of the Rings. The most recent print refers to all the volumes as part of the HoME.

I mispelled seems?

[Ñólendil]

Er, Cirdan, maybe you misunderstand whoever asked about Unfinished Tales. The answer is: no, Unfinished Tales is not part of the History of Middle-earth. It's a seperate, independent book, published before the History of Middle-earth.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Er, Cirdan, maybe you misunderstand whoever asked about Unfinished Tales. The answer is: no, Unfinished Tales is not part of the History of Middle-earth. It's a seperate, independent book, published before the History of Middle-earth.

Oh yeah, I have a habit of mixing up the different "tales" books...

[Rían]

Well, Cirdan, I guess we're doomed to disagree here, because to me the "not in it" or "of it" refers back to the "Gods", the beings that Rumil is differentiating from Ilúvatar. The Valar (IOW, the Ainur that chose to enter Arda) are "in it" and "of it", as opposed to Ilúvatar, who is not "in it" or "of it" because He created it. It has nothing to do with his omnipresence, IMO.

And Tolkien clearly states that the gods of ME are angelic beings. A better translation would be "powers" or "governors". He more than once lamented how he used English words for some of his creations, such as wizards and elves. He just thought that too many "foreign" words would be too confusing. From letter 131,

from letter 131 of JRRT:
The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making.

(italics are Tolkien's own, not mine)

Re seams - you must have been pulling a loose thread from your clothing, so you wrote "seams"

[Sister Golden Hair]

We need to remember too that the BoLTs is the old mythology, therefore it is not part of LotRs, the Silmarillion, or Unfinished Tales.

[Lief Erikson]

I've never read Unfinished Tales, but seeing as it's written by J.R.R. Tolkien, it must be good. Could anyone tell me why it's called Unfinished Tales though? Is it because it doesn't end, but just leaves off because Tolkien stopped writing it, or is there another reason?

[Rían]

It consists of stories in various stages of completion. As is my usual habit, I'll give a quote, this time from the introduction by Christopher Tolkien:

The narratives in this book ... taken together they constitude no whole, and the book is no more than a collection of writings, disparate in form, intent, finish, and date of composition .... concerned with Numenor and Middle-earth."

Then he goes on to say that basically there is such stunning imagery in the writings that he thinks that Tolkien fans would really appreciate it. (and I agree with him!)

Some of the main stories - Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin; Narn I Hin Hurin (both of these are somewhat in the Sil), The History of Galadriel and Celeborn (and this one is really unfinished! He changes his mind numerous times).

Also some shorter but very interesting stories: The Disaster of the Gladden Fields (talking about Isildur and how the ring was lost); The Quest of Erebor (really fun! the "real" story of how Gandalf convinced Thorin to take Bilbo along); and The Hunt for the Ring (more info on black riders, including how they are "afraid" of water).

I would recommend UT over the BoLT books, because as SGH said, BoLT is largely the "old" mythology, although much of it is obviously pertinent (although the Tuor section in BoLT II is really wonderful). Also, I really like MR (Morgoth's Ring), book 10 of HoME series. Solution - buy everything! (I wish I could!)

[Rían]

And I would recommend The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien over UT and HoME! I have thoroughly enjoyed Letters. But that's just my opinion.

[Maedhros]

We need to remember too that the BoLTs is the old mythology, therefore it is not part of LotRs, the Silmarillion, or Unfinished Tales.

I would recommend UT over the BoLT books, because as SGH said, BoLT is largely the "old" mythology, although much of it is obviously pertinent (although the Tuor section in BoLT II is really wonderful).

From Bolt 1: The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor

This is not to say that all such imagining was definitively
abandoned: as I have said in the Foreword, the Lost Tales
were followed by a version so compressed as to be no more
than a resume (as was its purpose), and the later development
of the mythology proceeded from that -- a process of re-
expansion. Many things never referred to again after the Lost
Tales may have continued to exist in a state of suspension,
as it were.

Certainly, many things were lost in Bolt, yet by reading it you can gain more insight about the characters in the Silmarillion. For example: if you read the Theft of Melko, you will get to see a rare view of the character of Manwë, and you will come to understand why he is the noblest of the Ainur.
There are many wonderful things in Bolt: in some cases a more detailed description of places, we have the concept of Ælfwine, Olórë Marë (The Cottage of Lost Play), we have the Lady of Tol Eressëa Meril-i-Turinqi, we have the Man in the Moon (who turns out to be an Elf Uolë Kúvion).
The great thing about Bolt is that you get to see first hand the first evolution of the Legendarium, and the poems at the end of Bolt 1 are very beautiful.

[SonOfSamWise]

"Philosophical reflections again?" Ivan snarled malignantly.
"God preserve me from it, but one can't help complaining sometimes. I am a slandered man... I have naturally a kind and merry heart... Before time was, by some decree which I could never make out, I was presdestined 'to deny' and yet I am genuinely good-hearted and not at all inclined to negation. 'No you must go and deny, without denial there is no criticism and what would a journal be without a collumn of criticism?' Without criticism it would be nothing but one 'hosannah.' But nothing but hossanna is not enough for life, the hosannah must be tried in the crucible of doubt and so on, in the same style. But I don't meddle in that, I didn't create it, I am not answerable for it. Well, they've chosen their scapegoat, they've made me write the collumn of criticism and so life was made possible... I...simply ask for annihilation. No, live, I am told, for there'd be nothing without you. If everything in the universe were sensible, nothing would happen. There would be no events without you, and there must be events. So against the grain I serve to produce events and do whats irrational because I am commanded to... [Men] suffer, of course...but then they live...for suffering is life. Without suffering, what would be the pleasure of it? It would be transformed into an endless church service; it would be holy, but tedious. I suffer, but I still don't live. I am an X in an indeterminant equation. I am a sort of phantom in life who has lost all beginning and end, and who has even forgotten his own name.

-- The Devil. Ivan's Nightmare, The Brothers Karamozov, Fyodor Dostoyevsky

"...the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many..."

[Valandil]

I've just started my Silmarillion re-read. Read (for the first time - it's in an edition I bought since my last reading) JRRT's letter to his publisher, outlining what's in the Silmarillion, how it affects the rest, and explaining why he wanted to publish it along with LOTR.

Finished reading Ainulindale... and starting in Valaquenta.

I see that even the last post in this thread pre-dates my joining Entmoot. But now... I can join in the discussion.

[Earniel]

Upon my last rereading of Ainulindalë, I was struck at the evolution of how I saw Melkor in it.

I no longer see Melkor as evil, rather more like chaos, which is in itself not necessarily good or bad. Which makes the whole idea of Melkor versus the other Ainur and (his meddling in the themes) one of chaos versus order, and not one of good versus evil. The good versus evil allegory clearly comes from a Christian viewpoint (to which I am subject too) and while Tolkien was clearly influenced by his faith, I think this is where he deliberatedly wanted his mythology to be different.

I find this epiphany opens up a new line of thought. It would explain better, IMO, why Ilúvatar made Melkor the one odd Ainu out, so to speak. There is no reason you'd really need evil in a world you're creating. But the moment you deal with independant life it needs adversity to strive and thrive against. Order is useful and life needs order to arise. But when you want it to do more than just be, when it needs to change and grow, it needs chaos. Melkor provided that in spades.

I'm not saying he isn't evil, but that seems to come later, when he looses his powers to create. For something as chaotic as Melkor it is ironic he himself dealt so badly with things not going his way. And it's not like Ilúvatar didn't warn him.

What the three themes are meant to represent, though, still somewhat eludes me as do Ilúvatar's reactions to it. Maybe in another fifteen years, I get another new insight.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

What the three themes are meant to represent, though, still somewhat eludes me as do Ilúvatar's reactions to it. Maybe in another fifteen years, I get another new insight.

I thought the three themes were

1. Arda itself,
2. the Elves, and
3. Men.

Ainulindalë is for me the most difficult of all Tolkien’s stories. He is attempting to describe the creation of the universe and the fall of the angelic powers.

[ I]t came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.

That sounds rather selfish on Melkor’s part: if you will, he is stealing from the other Ainur what is rightfully theirs, and attempting to steal from Ilúvatar what is rightfully His: namely, ultimate control of the Music.

[T]hou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.

He sounds like the classic schoolyard bully:

When … Earth was yet young … Melkor coveted it, and he said to the other Valar: “This shall be my own kingdom; and I name it unto myself!”

Melkor certainly wasn’t evil at his beginning. He had an enormous ego: first he wanted what belonged to the other Ainur; then he wanted what belonged to Ilúvatar.

Melkor is, I think, Tolkien’s version of Satan. In Roman Catholic tradition, when shown God’s plan to walk among human beings, Lucifer cries out, “I will not serve!”

In Judaism, from which Christianity springs, in the Tanakh (“Old Testament” for Christians), Isaiah 14:12-14,

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.”

And the tradition is that the Archangel Michael cried out, “Who is like God?” whereupon Lucifer fell from Heaven. Michael (with a soft “ch”) in Hebrew, מִיכָאֵל‎, means “Who is like God?” and is translated “Quis ut Deus?” in Latin.

My understanding is that Thomas Aquinas says the angels are beings of pure intellect, and make war through ideas. In Ainulindalë, the Ainur are waging war upon one another through their Music.

The Judaic view presented in Isaiah sounds to me strikingly like the story Tolkien presents in Ainulindalë: “above the stars of God [i.e., the other angels] I will set my throne on high; … I will make myself like the Most High.” Is this not what Melkor desires: to be not only greater than all the other Ainur, but to take what is theirs, to set himself before even Ilúvatar?

The Problem of Evil is an ancient one, often used in arguments against the existence of God. My first philosophy professor began his classes in introductory philosophy with it, and used it as a cudgel to beat us into atheists. If you are interested, here are four different views: Wikipedia (a decent overview; agnostic at best (for both theists and atheists), leans atheist); The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (atheist); Peter Kreeft, professor of philosophy at Boston College, a Roman Catholic university (presumably close to Tolkien’s Catholic view); and the C.S. Lewis Institute, presumably close to Lewis’ opinions around the time Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings and perhaps also to Tolkien’s.

There is an associated philosophical argument or debate, Free Will. The question of Free Will is not some silly, willy-nilly how-many-angels-can-dance-of-the-head-of-a-pin question, either: it goes straight to the heart of guilt and innocence, of predestination in both the religious sense (does God create some people just in order to damn them? John Calvin thought so) and in the scientific sense (talk to a neurosurgeon about this issue sometime, if you can find one that has the time and will agree to spend it with you: it’s likely he’s a “hard determinist”).

Along with these are a host of questions that follow in their train: Do we have souls? Do these souls continue to exist after our physical deaths? What becomes of us? These are deadly serious questions, and how you answer them determines in large part how you will live your life.

In Ainulindalë, Tolkien begins wrestling with the Problem of Evil and with Free Will. Did Ilúvatar not know that Melkor would rebel and become evil or not? Did Ilúvatar make Melkor for that purpose? or did Melkor (mis)use his free will to rebel against his Maker?

For anyone wrestling with these problems, I commend to you Pascal’s Wager. Pascal was a brilliant mathematician, and his proposition is mathematically sound. What you do with it, if you look at it, is up to you, whether by Free Will or Hard Determinism.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I thought the three themes were

1. Arda itself,
2. the Elves, and
3. Men.

Well, since the last theme is apparently the Children of Ilúvatar, the Elves should be included in the last, which leaves the second one more ambiguous.

That sounds rather selfish on Melkor’s part: if you will, he is stealing from the other Ainur what is rightfully theirs, and attempting to steal from Ilúvatar what is rightfully His: namely, ultimate control of the Music.

But unlike the other Ainur, Melkor had a part in the other Ainur's skills from the start, where could that have come from if not from Ilùvatar? Melkor could not have acquired it on his own, he doesn't interact enough with the other Ainur to gain that understanding.

Is this not what Melkor desires: to be not only greater than all the other Ainur, but to take what is theirs, to set himself before even Ilúvatar?

Yes and no. Melkor certainly desires dominion, but not over the Ainur, and not over Ilúvatar. He descends into Arda with the others, it is Arda which he wants. The Void with Ilúvatar and his remaining Ainur brethren hold no interest for him. He does not which to rival Ilúvatar, but he wants to be like him: capable of creation as he sees fit, being beholden to none, being served and admired. But he does not seem to wish to rise above his own creator.

[Valandil]

Like Alcuin, I also see a re-telling/re-shaping of a Judeo-Christian Creation story in the Ainulindale. My understanding is that JRRT wanted to maintain the all-powerful Judeo-Christian God, but also include figures akin to pantheons of gods found in the Mythology of the Greeks/Norse/so many others. The Ainulindale - and the relationships established therein - was his solution.

In this vein, I DO see Melkor as a clear Satan-figure. Yes - he was blessed with great gifts. How he used them... was up to him.

I think it was JRRT's intent to show things this way. To make Melkor into a Satan-figure. I remember a quote by Christopher Tolkien about JRRT's later years - and some philosophical shifts he made. Almost as though he wanted to reconcile his earlier views and histories of Middle Earth with what he believed about Christianity/Christian theology.