The Silmarillion: Ch.4, Of Thingol and Melian - Page 2

***azalea*** · 03-02-2003, 07:56 PM

Earniel, I agree with you that he "fell under her spell" as opposed to her "casting a spell" on him.
I also agree w/ Elanor's comment about his "power" inferiority complex, kind of like the "breadwinner" male complex when the wife makes more money. Thingol may have subconciously had negative feelings about the fact that his wife was more capable of keeping his kingdom safe than he was, but I guess we'll never know for sure!

Elvet · 03-02-2003, 08:51 PM

If we were to go with the 'Divine plan' theory, could it be that Melian purposely kept Elwe in Middle-earth to keep him and his decendents from being tainted by the oath of Feanor? Not that she would know that would happen, but maybe sort of a contingency plan so the Valar didn't maintain complete influence over the Eldar.

Kirinki54 · 03-03-2003, 06:42 PM

I think there is a clue in The Annals of Aman (MorgothÂ´s Ring).
It is omitted in the published Silmarillion, but before Melian departed for Middle-earth she went up upon Taniquetil to look upon the stars.
I speculate that she was there given some sort of vision or perhaps even mission by ManwÃ« (or even by Eru) to go to Middle-earth.
Her own motives for "catching" ElwÃ« are never given, but it seems clear that she actively did so. The short- and longterm consequences are well known.
Well, might be worth something...
(BTW hello Elanor!)

Dunadan · 03-05-2003, 07:04 AM

I agree with this. Remember last chapter we were discussing whether the Summons of the Valar was a good idea or not. Seems like here we've got evidence that it wasn't part of Iluvatar's plans for all the Eldar to go to Valinor.

cheers

d.

Kirinki54 · 03-10-2003, 05:42 PM

A footnote on this Ch 4 discussion:
The trees grew tall in Nan Elmoth while Melian and Thingol stood there, under her enchantment. It was also in Nan Elmoth that EÃ¶l enchanted Aredhel. Do you think EÃ¶l benefitted from some Maia power that still lingered in that forest? (It has sometimes been discussed by what means he could have achieved this feat.)

Elanor Gamgee · 03-11-2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
A footnote on this Ch 4 discussion:
The trees grew tall in Nan Elmoth while Melian and Thingol stood there, under her enchantment. It was also in Nan Elmoth that EÃ¶l enchanted Aredhel. Do you think EÃ¶l benefitted from some Maia power that still lingered in that forest? (It has sometimes been discussed by what means he could have achieved this feat.)

Hi Kirinki,

Well, that's possible. I wonder, though, if Sindar themselves possessed some pretty strong witchcraft (no negative connotation implied). Do you remember how casually Thranduil informed the Dwarves that the doors of his palace are guarded by magic? Yet the situation could be reverse - Melian might share her knowledge and power not only with her husband, but also with other Elves of her realm. In this case it could be as you say, that some of the enchantment lingered still in Nan Emloth.

Kirinki54 · 03-17-2003, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Do you remember how casually Thranduil informed the Dwarves that the doors of his palace are guarded by magic?

No, not really. Remind me, please!

Elanor Gamgee · 03-19-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
No, not really. Remind me, please!

With pleasure.

Here it comes:

Quote:

"Besides they need no ropes in here," said he [Elvenking a.k.a Thranduil - E.G.] "There is no escape from my magic doors for those who are once brought inside."

The Hobbit, Barrels out of Bond; the dwarves are brought before Elvenking.

This was the quote I meant, but I have found at least two more. One is from the same chapter, a couple of pages later:

Quote:

For something to do he [Bilbo - E.G.] took to wondering about the Elvenking's palace. Magic shut the gates, but he could sometimes get out, if he was quick.

Another from the previous chapter, Flies and Spiders:

Quote:

The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault itis distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary.

Kirinki54 · 03-20-2003, 05:21 PM

I need new glasses, Elanor. I thought you wrote Thingol said that, not Thranduil.

Elanor Gamgee · 03-20-2003, 06:33 PM

Take it easy

But what about Sindar, Melian and magic, though? Who taught whom?

***Earniel*** · 03-21-2003, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
I need new glasses, Elanor. I thought you wrote Thingol said that, not Thranduil.

Same here. I suppose it's because the threadname has Thingol in it.

Elanor Gamgee · 03-21-2003, 04:25 PM

That's possible. No worries, to browse through "The Hobbit" is always nice

snowmane · 03-21-2003, 04:54 PM

technically thats a bit off-melian being a maia already knew stuff, but sure elves have their own brand of magic.......galadriel and here mirror for instance.that was her for of 'elf-magic' for sam and frodo

ItalianLegolas · 12-06-2004, 04:07 PM

even the mere gift of the Light of Ereandil was like magic to Sam and Frodo, I imagine, because before the only magic they had witnessed was that of Gandalf lighting fires and fireworks, and Elrond healing Frodo, which was no minor feat, I will remind you...

***Earniel*** · 09-29-2018, 08:11 AM

I've been wondering about Melian's timing and motive for her Middle-earth relocation. The text is very sparse on that, saying only she went (paraphrasing) at the time when the Eldar awoke at CuivÃ*enen. Is that right before? And if so, did she anticipate their coming better than the Valar? Or was this after OromÃ« informed the Valar of the First Children's awakening?

And what was her motive for doing so? There must have been some intent to do with the Children because she could have relocated at any point before that but chose to wait until this specific moment. Was she attempting to give the Eldar something to remain on Middle-earth? Making it a little more pleasant with a dawn chorus, and safer with her skills of enchantment?

It has to be said for the Valar, while their wish to remove the Eldar to Aman was an ill one, they didn't press the stragglers or those that became enamoured with other vistas back on the journey. The Eldar were haemorraghing individual Elves and groups all over the place during their long trek. But if they didn't follow OromÃ« right away, there was no attempt to convince them any further.

So clearly, the Valar must have foreseen and understood that a good deal of Eldar wasn't leaving Middle-earth at all. But they seem to not have been particularly concerned for those either, which is strange, considering their fear for the Children's safety was what prompted them to invite them all to Aman in the first place.

Did they have a contingency plan? Was that Melian? If so, seems a bit odd to have her deal with the Elves all on her own, despite the great power and wisdom she had.

But even if Melian acted on her own volition, why was she apparently the only one to do so? There were a multitude of Maiar, were they all so undisconcerned with the Children?

***Valandil*** · 09-29-2018, 10:36 AM

I had not thought about this before. Stray thoughts in response to some of your points:

The Valar probably didn't feel like they needed to try to "save" every single one of the Eldar. Especially once they saw the tendency of some to want to do other than follow them to Aman. But they saw that a large group still followed them, and may have become satisfied in saving a "remnant" - some kind of group. They wouldn't force the others to come, but if none survived (or thrived / prospered) but those they brought to Aman - at least those would have.

I doubt that Melian's plan was any "Plan B" of the Valar. It seems like most are acting as "free agents"... are they? I am sure the Valar talk and plan together - but do they include all the Maiar in these discussions? It IS possible that they commissioned Melian for some purpose like this - but I doubt it.

Melian herself - had never considered this before - but perhaps she knew that her fate was to be tightly entwined with the Children... and with one of them in particular. Do you think that's possible?

***Earniel*** · 09-30-2018, 04:36 AM

That's an interesting thought. Melian was Maia, but she had been an Ainu before and therefore had a part in the Themes. Did the news of the Children's arrival perhaps triggered some memory of the Music that told her it would be a good idea for her to go the Middle-earth, that she'd have a part to play there?

I like the idea and it would explain why she went alone and apparently of her own volition.

03-02-2003, 08:51 PM	#22
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	If we were to go with the 'Divine plan' theory, could it be that Melian purposely kept Elwe in Middle-earth to keep him and his decendents from being tainted by the oath of Feanor? Not that she would know that would happen, but maybe sort of a contingency plan so the Valar didn't maintain complete influence over the Eldar. __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know." Last edited by Elvet : 03-03-2003 at 01:57 PM.

03-03-2003, 06:42 PM	#23
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	I think there is a clue in The Annals of Aman (MorgothÂ´s Ring). It is omitted in the published Silmarillion, but before Melian departed for Middle-earth she went up upon Taniquetil to look upon the stars. I speculate that she was there given some sort of vision or perhaps even mission by ManwÃ« (or even by Eru) to go to Middle-earth. Her own motives for "catching" ElwÃ« are never given, but it seems clear that she actively did so. The short- and longterm consequences are well known. Well, might be worth something... (BTW hello Elanor!) __________________ 'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

03-10-2003, 05:42 PM	#25
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	A footnote on this Ch 4 discussion: The trees grew tall in Nan Elmoth while Melian and Thingol stood there, under her enchantment. It was also in Nan Elmoth that EÃ¶l enchanted Aredhel. Do you think EÃ¶l benefitted from some Maia power that still lingered in that forest? (It has sometimes been discussed by what means he could have achieved this feat.) __________________ 'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

03-20-2003, 05:21 PM	#29
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	I need new glasses, Elanor. I thought you wrote Thingol said that, not Thranduil. __________________ 'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

03-20-2003, 06:33 PM	#30
Elanor Gamgee Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Shire Posts: 49	Take it easy But what about Sindar, Melian and magic, though? Who taught whom? __________________ Above all shadows rides the Sun And stars forever dwell; I will not say the day is done, Nor bid the stars farewell.

03-02-2003, 07:56 PM	#21
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Earniel, I agree with you that he "fell under her spell" as opposed to her "casting a spell" on him. I also agree w/ Elanor's comment about his "power" inferiority complex, kind of like the "breadwinner" male complex when the wife makes more money. Thingol may have subconciously had negative feelings about the fact that his wife was more capable of keeping his kingdom safe than he was, but I guess we'll never know for sure!

03-05-2003, 07:04 AM	#24
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	I agree with this. Remember last chapter we were discussing whether the Summons of the Valar was a good idea or not. Seems like here we've got evidence that it wasn't part of Iluvatar's plans for all the Eldar to go to Valinor. cheers d.

03-21-2003, 04:25 PM	#32
Elanor Gamgee Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Shire Posts: 49	That's possible. No worries, to browse through "The Hobbit" is always nice __________________ Above all shadows rides the Sun And stars forever dwell; I will not say the day is done, Nor bid the stars farewell.

03-21-2003, 04:54 PM	#33
snowmane Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 23	technically thats a bit off-melian being a maia already knew stuff, but sure elves have their own brand of magic.......galadriel and here mirror for instance.that was her for of 'elf-magic' for sam and frodo __________________ faithful servant yet master's bane, lighfoot's foal, swift snowmane..

12-06-2004, 04:07 PM	#34
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	even the mere gift of the Light of Ereandil was like magic to Sam and Frodo, I imagine, because before the only magic they had witnessed was that of Gandalf lighting fires and fireworks, and Elrond healing Frodo, which was no minor feat, I will remind you... __________________ What was lost is now found.

09-29-2018, 08:11 AM	#35
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I've been wondering about Melian's timing and motive for her Middle-earth relocation. The text is very sparse on that, saying only she went (paraphrasing) at the time when the Eldar awoke at CuivÃ*enen. Is that right before? And if so, did she anticipate their coming better than the Valar? Or was this after OromÃ« informed the Valar of the First Children's awakening? And what was her motive for doing so? There must have been some intent to do with the Children because she could have relocated at any point before that but chose to wait until this specific moment. Was she attempting to give the Eldar something to remain on Middle-earth? Making it a little more pleasant with a dawn chorus, and safer with her skills of enchantment? It has to be said for the Valar, while their wish to remove the Eldar to Aman was an ill one, they didn't press the stragglers or those that became enamoured with other vistas back on the journey. The Eldar were haemorraghing individual Elves and groups all over the place during their long trek. But if they didn't follow OromÃ« right away, there was no attempt to convince them any further. So clearly, the Valar must have foreseen and understood that a good deal of Eldar wasn't leaving Middle-earth at all. But they seem to not have been particularly concerned for those either, which is strange, considering their fear for the Children's safety was what prompted them to invite them all to Aman in the first place. Did they have a contingency plan? Was that Melian? If so, seems a bit odd to have her deal with the Elves all on her own, despite the great power and wisdom she had. But even if Melian acted on her own volition, why was she apparently the only one to do so? There were a multitude of Maiar, were they all so undisconcerned with the Children?

09-29-2018, 10:36 AM	#36
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	I had not thought about this before. Stray thoughts in response to some of your points: The Valar probably didn't feel like they needed to try to "save" every single one of the Eldar. Especially once they saw the tendency of some to want to do other than follow them to Aman. But they saw that a large group still followed them, and may have become satisfied in saving a "remnant" - some kind of group. They wouldn't force the others to come, but if none survived (or thrived / prospered) but those they brought to Aman - at least those would have. I doubt that Melian's plan was any "Plan B" of the Valar. It seems like most are acting as "free agents"... are they? I am sure the Valar talk and plan together - but do they include all the Maiar in these discussions? It IS possible that they commissioned Melian for some purpose like this - but I doubt it. Melian herself - had never considered this before - but perhaps she knew that her fate was to be tightly entwined with the Children... and with one of them in particular. Do you think that's possible? __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ã‘ Ã¡ Ã« ?* Ã³ Ãº Ã© Ã¤ Ã¯ Ã¶ Ã– Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® â„¢ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

09-30-2018, 04:36 AM	#37
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	That's an interesting thought. Melian was Maia, but she had been an Ainu before and therefore had a part in the Themes. Did the news of the Children's arrival perhaps triggered some memory of the Music that told her it would be a good idea for her to go the Middle-earth, that she'd have a part to play there? I like the idea and it would explain why she went alone and apparently of her own volition.

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