How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[Gordis]

How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder?

This question, put by Landroval, is so interesting that it deserves a special thread, IMO. Also I have some crazy ideas on the matter that I would like to share.

Council of Elrond: Balin will find no ring in Moria, said Gandalf. Thror gave it to Thrain his son, but not Thrain to Thorin. It was taken with torment from Thrain in the dungeons of Dol Guldur. I came too late.

Originally Posted by Landroval

You know, I wonder, why was it necessary to take the ring with torment? Wouldn't sheer force suffice? Perhaps a common feature of the power rings was to be hidden to everyone and hold on to its master. Gandalf maintained his ring, even though he was imprisoned by Saruman and even when reimbodied; Sauron too kept the ring to himself all the time, with the destruction of Numenor and whatnot; we could speculate about how Galadriel and Elrond kept their rings secret too...

You know, it is so very true, Landroval.

Perhaps some torment was what every prisoner received in Sauron's dungeon's just as a part of the service - like towels in a hotel?? But there may be MUCH more to it...

Have you noticed, that no one apparently had his ring DRAGGED from his finger by force?
I mean, Sauron had his finger cut first, Frodo as well, in Isildur's and Gollum's cases, the Ring slipped from the finger all by itself; in Deagol's case, he was most probably killed when NOT wearing the Ring; in cases of the ring transfers from one person to another their owners didn't actually WEAR the rings, as in Frodo-Sam's case (near Shelob's lair), or took off the rings willingly.

Probably, it is just IMPOSSIBLE to drag a ring of Power off someone's finger without either cutting off the finger or killing the ring-wielder - in a special way (see below)?

The other option is to torture the wielder, so he gives you his ring himself?

I guess, in the case of Thrain, the last method was used, as the dwarf became mentally and physically damaged. It wouldn't have happened if only his finger was cut away.

I don't think a Ring could be hidden from either Sauron, or Saruman: "invisible" in Tolkien's world means "existing in the World of Shadows", but both Maiar had access to it. And Saruman knew about Gandalf's ring (UT). Probably he just didn't want to cut his colleague's finger off, or torment him really hard - he may still have hoped that Gandalf would co-operate? And killing the maia Gandalf would make him take the Ring with him - as Sauron did when "killed" in Numenor.

And if we go a little further (maybe further than it is reasonable ), could it be that ANY wielder, if killed with a Ring ON, takes the Ring with him, when he becomes a mere spirit?

So, if orcs killed Gollum while he was WEARING the Ring, there would be no material "Precious" on the finger of his dead body, instead, his spirit would take the Ring with him to Mandos and beyond? (sounds crazy?)

The same way with Isildur: if the Orcs had shot Isildur while he was invisible, the Ring would have gone out of the Circles of the World with his soul forever? Maybe the Ring felt this danger, that's why it slipped from Isildur's finger?

And Frodo at Weathertop: note that the Nazgul approached the hobbits with NORMAL swords. They could have chopped Frodo to pieces quite easily, attacking all at once. BUT, it was only the Witch-King (who had a Morgul Blade) who attacked him, and he wounded Frodo with this weapon ONLY, not the long sword he had in his other hand.
Why not chop the hobbit's head off, take the body, Ring and all, and carry away?
- Perhaps because in this way, there would be NO ring on his dead body, and try to get it back from the Halls of Mandos!

The Morgul Blade was the ONLY suitable weapon - it bounded the soul to the Middle Earth, making it unable to leave.
Perhaps, this was also the reason why Sauron sent the Nazgul for the Ring, not some mortals. The ringbearer HAD to be killed with a MORGUL Blade, that was crucial.

Thoughts?

[ecthelion]

IMO, you can rest your case. It's quite a complete argument.
Only one small question - why should sauron torment Thrain instead of just cutting all of his fingers?

[CAB]

That is a very interesting idea ...ummm...Gordroval.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Probably, it is just IMPOSSIBLE to drag a ring of Power off someone's finger without either cutting off the finger or killing the ring-wielder

I would guess that this part is quite likely true. Maybe the Elves originally built the rings this way just to keep from losing them and Sauron followed suit in making the One.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And if we go a little further (maybe further than it is reasonable ), could it be that ANY wielder, if killed with a Ring ON, takes the Ring with him, when he becomes a mere spirit?

I think in the letter that tells how Sauron brought the Ring back to Middle Earth from the ruins of Numenor, it is said that it is Sauron’s nature that allows him to carry the Ring, not any kind of connection between ring and holder.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And Frodo at Weathertop: note that the Nazgul approached the hobbits with NORMAL swords. They could have chopped Frodo to pieces quite easily, attacking all at once. BUT, it was only the Witch-King (who had a Morgul Blade) who attacked him, and he wounded Frodo with this weapon ONLY, not the long sword he had in his other hand.
Why not chop the hobbit's head off, take the body, Ring and all, and carry away?

To me, there isn’t really a good explanation for the Nazguls’ actions on Weathertop. I personally believe that the situation is best (but still not sufficiently) explained by malice causing poor decision making (Frodo’s friends get to watch as he turns into a wraith). Even if the Nazgul couldn’t kill Frodo (for whatever reason), they could have killed everyone else and captured him. It’s not like he could put the Ring on and disappear from the Nazguls’ view. One of Tolkien’s letters says that the Nazgul were frightened that they met any resistance, but this doesn’t explain why the Witch King obviously intended to use the morgul blade. Even if Frodo had only held off “wraithdom” as long as the Nazgul expected, this would still be a few days. Why the wasted time and added risk? What would keep one of Frodo’s companions from taking the Ring (he wasn’t always wearing it) from him? People are supposed to be tempted to take the Ring, aren’t they? It doesn’t add up.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Morgul Blade was the ONLY suitable weapon - it bounded the soul to the Middle Earth, making it unable to leave.
Perhaps, this was also the reason why Sauron sent the Nazgul for the Ring, not some mortals. The ringbearer HAD to be killed with a MORGUL Blade, that was crucial.

That is an interesting idea, but, like I said, I don’t think sufficiently explains their actions. They could have tied Frodo up and then stabbed him with the blade.

If removal of a great ring could be accomplished by taking off a finger (obviously, it could), I don’t see why these other techniques would be needed.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Only one small question - why should sauron torment Thrain instead of just cutting all of his fingers?

Hmm, perhaps he loved tormenting those impertinent Dwarves who wasted one of his Rings, had it for an Age and a half, but didn't serve him? He was Sauron, after all...By the way, perhaps he did cut Thrain's finger as well.

Originally Posted by CAB

I think in the letter that tells how Sauron brought the Ring back to Middle Earth from the ruins of Numenor, it is said that it is Sauron’s nature that allows him to carry the Ring, not any kind of connection between ring and holder.

It is true, of course. That is why I called my idea "crazy". But it does explain some things, does it not?

Originally Posted by CAB

To me, there isn’t really a good explanation for the Nazguls’ actions on Weathertop. I personally believe that the situation is best (but still not sufficiently) explained by malice causing poor decision making (Frodo’s friends get to watch as he turns into a wraith).

I think, if malice were involved, it was not the desire to hurt his friends' feelings. Most likely it was Sauron's ORDER to the Nazgul to bring back not only the Ring, but also "Baggins", ALIVE or as a wraith.

Note that at the Ford, the Nazgul called to him: "Come back! To Mordor we will take you" and only when he refused, they settled for having only the Ring "The Ring! Give us the Ring".

I think, when the nazgul surrounded Frodo at Weathertop, they intended to capture him ALIVE. Because, really, no nazgul tried to kill him with a sword. If Frodo had no blade, he would have been carried away, kicking and screaming, all right.

The Witch-King attacked Frodo with the Morgul Blade, ONLY when he saw Frodo's flaming sword from Barrow-Downs and recognized its danger.

That was a big surprise for the WK, for he hasn't seen such swords for 1500 years, since TA 1409. All such swords either perished, or were kept safely in the Barrows guarded by the Wights. I think, guarding the blades was the primary task the WK assigned to them, when sending the Wights from Angmar to inhabit the Barrows, back in TA 1640 or something...

A midget Frodo was, of course, half the WK's size, but his little pin of a sword was the worse threat imaginable: "No other sword..."
And note that Frodo was decidedly "no Man" , which couldn't have escaped the WK's notice.
The little snake was obviously deadly.

There, I believe, the WK has made a big mistake: he should have paused to break the dangerous sword at a distance, with a spell, as he did later at the Ford. Instead, he bravely attacked immediately, wielding his Morgul blade, having settled for bringing Frodo back, not alive, but as a wraith.

But Frodo stroke first, and stroke unexpectedly low, throwing himself on the ground and aiming for the nazgul's legs (and calling out to a certain Valie in the process). The WK almost got killed himself! So, the WK's blade, aimed at the hobbit's heart, only met his arm.

Then Aragorn came with his flaming branches, and the two parties separated, all the participants considerably shaken.

Note that at the Ford, when coming over to get Frodo, the WK didn't repeat the same mistake: he broke Frodo's sword first, and made him mute, preventing him to call to Elbereth, before he approached him.

Originally Posted by CAB

Even if Frodo had only held off “wraithdom” as long as the Nazgul expected, this would still be a few days. Why the wasted time and added risk? What would keep one of Frodo’s companions from taking the Ring (he wasn’t always wearing it) from him? People are supposed to be tempted to take the Ring, aren’t they? It doesn’t add up.

I believe, the nazgul never intended to strike Frodo in the shoulder and wait for him to fade. IMO, if the Morgul Blade touched the heart, or passed anywhere near it, Frodo would have become wraith immediately, or in a matter of minutes, and just followed the WK like a dog, away from his friends.

Perhaps, given the erratic fight, the WK was not really sure what part of Frodo had been wounded.

But the rest doesn't add up, really. It is very strange, that the nazgul permitted the hobbits and Aragorn to get lost in the wilderness again, but not followed them from Weathertop.

Of course, Frodo's companions should have taken the Ring from him, when he came too close to becoming a wraith. I always wondered why they let Frodo keep the Ring, while he was hovering on the border of wraithdom. He could have suddenly disappeared, becoming a wraith, and carried the Ring to the nazgul.

[Jon S.]

Excellent analysis, Gordis.

I know this is not the response you want to hear but the actual explanation may be story-external (Tolkien wanted the Fellowship to have an early, abortive, non-decisive encounter with the Nazgul).

[Butterbeer]

you know i never thought about that ... Saruman must see Narya ...and yet he does not lust nor desire one of the mighty three ...especially Narya?? ...

imagine ...

Narya combined with his power of voice???

wow!

with his own ring and will of adamant?



Personally - I don't doubt for a second he'd have even hesitated to have chopped Gandalf's finger off if he wanted to!

so... what then exactly did he hope to achieve by keeping him up there?

[The One Ring, The Precous]

L.O.L. means Laugh Out Loud.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Perhaps some torment was what every prisoner received in Sauron's dungeon's just as a part of the service - like towels in a hotel??

ROTFL!!

That is so funny I can't even read the rest of the thread now!