Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

For all these reasons, Germany under the Third Riech really isn't that good an example of Christians being evil. Though there are far better examples you could point to. The Inquisition is probably the very best example of absolutely twisted wickedness practiced by Christians.

How about the Klu Klux Klan? A organization with all kinds of ties to protestant evangelicalism and arguably one of the pioneers of terrorism as we know it today?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

*pops in*

Well, Hitler was a Christian.

He was also a democratically elected leader. Monarchy forever!

*disappears in a puff of smoke*

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And just because your teacher laughed and said that Hitler was not a Christian, doesn't change the facts. He wasn't a good christian, though, he was awful. And Osama bin Laden is not a good Muslim, either. He, too, is awful.

Let's not let facts get in the way of a good argument.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Can you provide a citation for that, and an exact quotation showing what was known and accepted? I think I recall from The Century that the world was shocked when Allied soldiers opened up the concentration camps, and in a fiction movie I watched (from a series that is quite well researched), after the war was over and the Holocaust exposed, a German soldier was horrified to see what had happened. So I'd really need to see a citation for that.
*Goes and does some research.*
Yeah, it really seems that you're making a mistake there.

Considering the laws that were passed against Jews in Germany in the early years of the Nazi party, and the fact that they were rounded up and their homes and possessions were taken by other (christian ) Germans, the regular populace knew an awful lot. Whether they thought that these disappearing Jews were being sent to their deaths or on a holiday in the Mediterranean is irrelavant.

You can look it up if you like.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Well, if you are going to continue demanding citations from everyone here, does it not follow that you yourself should be prepared to show us "citations" for the origins of your ideas? You tend to gloss over or skirt questions directed at you that you are uncomfortable with, or feel you cannot answer, so instead of answering direct questions or statements of FACT directed at you in this debate, you choose to either ignore or demand "citations."

I ask for citations when I doubt the information. I don't doubt that the person believes what he or she is saying, but I am unconvinced that he or she is right. If he or she fails to back the claims, I have no reason to believe what's said. Sometimes I have gone researching though, to find out for myself. Like I did just now in response to Radagast's claim about the awareness of the German people of the Holocaust.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Where are all your "citations," Lief? Because you make so many wild claims in this thread! It's kind of ironic, don't you think?

I can only respond to you in the same way I did last time. No debater on Entmoot has ever been forced to produce a bibliography for all their sources in all their posts. No one should have to. If any person on Entmoot questions some particular thing I say though, I provide sources. Radagast just questioned my 80 million number, so I provided him with sources.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And just because your teacher laughed and said that Hitler was not a Christian, doesn't change the facts. He wasn't a good christian, though, he was awful. And Osama bin Laden is not a good Muslim, either. He, too, is awful.

He is one source that says Hitler wasn't a Christian, and as history is his expertise, he is a valid source of evidence. I have presented a great deal of other information on Hitler and the Nazi Party in Parts 1 and 2 of this thread already though. The "facts" aren't what you believe they are.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I would like to note, Lief, that I learnt about the subject in history this year... and the whole world knew. So it seems rather strange to me that the Germans from all people wouldn't.

Well, according to that article, most historians say the German people didn't know. I don't have a source regarding the rest of the world (and haven't researched that yet), but I wonder if your history professor was one of the minority that has the alternate view.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Considering the laws that were passed against Jews in Germany in the early years of the Nazi party, and the fact that they were rounded up and their homes and possessions were taken by other (christian ) Germans, the regular populace knew an awful lot. Whether they thought that these disappearing Jews were being sent to their deaths or on a holiday in the Mediterranean is irrelavant.

Of course it's obvious that many Christians in Germany were anti-Semitic, and they knew there were highly discriminatory laws set up against the Jews. That doesn't mean they knew about the Holocaust. Knowing that your neighbor is being given an unfair deal isn't the same as knowing your neighbor is being tortured or murdered.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

But why look at the evil deeds muslims did in the name of Allah hundreds of years ago? Religions can change. I'll give you an example: In the past, the God in Judaism was believed to be with a human-like body. It was changed only in a later era.

Yet as I just pointed out, it's apparent that Islam hasn't changed. Fifty or sixty years ago, it would have been easier for you to make a case that it has changed, but now it is obvious that it hasn't.

Also, the doctrines themselves include violent teachings, and the example of Mohammed and his earliest followers shows what they mean. Unless Muslims turn away from Mohammed, they could not turn away from violence. Many Muslims have, but it seems implausible that all will, permanently. And a growing number is turning back toward violence.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Moab, Ammon, Aram, etc... they're not in today's Israel and were almost never ruled by the Hebrews in the past (except for some time in the time of David or Solomon)

All I remember from the Old Testament is these nations attacking Israel, failing in their assaults, and being conquered. Perhaps plundered after being conquered, as well.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

A history book, in Hebrew. Does it help?

:/ Well, it's not much. But I won't push it. I know massive numbers were killed through disease, and some European nations did engage in destroying and enslaving some civilizations as well (often against the will of missionaries).

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

There are better ways than mass execution.

Easy for you to say!

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

But it's irrelevant in this case. You can't really learn a lot about Judaism when looking at what they've done 3000 years ago.

It's not irrelevant. Many Muslim extremists follow Mohammed's example, because he taught that this is how Muslims are to behave in general. He didn't say, "conquer this specific group," but, "conquer the pagans." So modern Muslims take this and follow it as well.

The Old Testament doesn't include commands like that. God commanded the Jews, "attack this group," or "attack that group," but he didn't say, "attack all unbelievers!" That's why after one group was attacked, Israel could stop attacking unless God commanded again. Islam is very different. It just gives general orders for jihad against unbelievers, and modern Muslims as well as Muslims throughout history have acted on his words, among other things, of course.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

The main point is that Muslims treated better to foreign religion's believers than Christians.

Okay. They treated them better than Christians of that time did, anyway. Contrast how the United States, a country that's more than 80% Christian, or Uganda, another country that's 85% Christian, with the way modern Muslim states treat non-Muslims.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I mean that these days Christianity is much much more tolerant than Islam, and if, for instance, you do a cartoon on the Christian God you would'nt see thousands going out demonstrating and destroying embassies.

I see. It's because Jesus told us to "turn the other cheek," that we behave that way. Throughout history, there have been Christians who practice this.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The "facts" aren't what you believe they are..

That is correct. The facts are the facts, whether you or I or any other human being wishes to believe or disbelieve them. Believing the sky is purple does not make it a fact that it is purple. Believing that Adolph Hitler was not a christian does not erase the fact that he was, indeed, a christian, not an atheist, not agnostic, not muslim, not buddhist, but christian. Like I said, not a very nice or good christian, but a christian, nonetheless, just as bin Laden is a muslim, but not a very nice or good muslim. Why do you struggle so hard against this fact, Lief? Is it because you, being a christian yourself, are loathe to have your religion and faith in any way identified with such a powerfully evil figure of recent history? Well, think of how the average muslim must feel, being Islamic and having to be associated with the recent evils of another powerful evil-guy par exemplar, Osama bin Laden. It doesn't feel very good, does it? But it is the truth. Bin Laden is a muslim, Hitler was a christian. Period. Those are the facts.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Well, according to that article, most historians say the German people didn't know.

And most first-hand reports and journals of the people will say otherwise. Of course they knew!! And, of course historians will do what they do best, that is, do their after-the-fact spin doctoring and try to convince the newer generations who were not alive during the time to believe that the rest of the world were clueless as to what was happening to millions upon millions of europeans, over a period of years - they are trying to save as much face as they can!

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Knowing that your neighbor is being given an unfair deal isn't the same as knowing your neighbor is being tortured or murdered.

Perhaps. But they knew that their Jewish neighbors were not just being given "an unfair deal," the people were well aware that Jewish members of society were being stripped of their rights as citizens and summarily being carted off to concentration camps, where their bodies and spirits were tortured, starved, shot, and incinerated. You think Anne Frank's family's protectors were unaware of what was going on in Germany, with the genocidal campaign? Why would they have hidden the Franks if they were unaware? And that's just in Holland, never mind Germany, Austria, and all the other European countries. And that is obviously just one very famous example to use to illustrate a point. Obviously, there will be almost countless other examples of the same kind to prove the same point, that non-Jewish citizens of european countries, including and especially Germany & Austria, were more than well aware of the torture & elimination campaign against their Jewish neighbors. Have you ever even read a transcript of one of Hitler's famous speeches? You think those millions of German citizens had their ears plugged whilst he was instructing them all that Jews were pigs, and every one of them ought to be eradicated? His Hitler Youth programs? Etcetera and so on? They knew. For "historians" nowadays to insist that the average German or non-Jewish european was entirely ignorant of Hitler's campaign and of the fact that the Jews were being killed off like crazy is just a tactic after the fact to save a little face, because it must be a bitter pill to swallow now, that history must scream the truth and the truth is so horribly shameful for such a big segment of european society. Just use your brain, Lief; how do you think tens of millions of europeans could be systematically "vanished" in cattle carts and Kristalnacht-typew situations over such a short span of time, and no one have any idea that this segment of society were being tortured and exterminated? Use your brain, my friend, use the brain.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Yet as I just pointed out, it's apparent that Islam hasn't changed.

And this statement makes no sense, because everything changes. It is the nature of life, time and existence that everything is in a constant state of change. Just because there is a violent, radical, extremist and dangerous-to-civilised-humanity, terrorist fundy offshoot of the huge religion of Islam, does not make the entire Islamic religion evil and somehow inferior to Christianity and the Christian religion. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, right? Isn't this what Jesus said? And also, did you even take the time to read the LATimes article I posted here this morning, which reported about the Muslim leaders approaching the Dalai Lama and having a very peaceful, hopeful, progressive summit - Muslim and Buddhist, working together towards a peaceful solution, and with love? This counts as change and progress. Fact. And it is also a fact that the Muslim church leaders worldwide will not condone the radical violence of such nasty offshoots as Al Quaeda and suicide bombing, and violence & terror done whilst wearing the cloak of Islam - they HATE that!! They no more condone bin Laden than the Pope condoned Hitler! It is so unfair and counter-productive to denigrate an entire segment of the world's population strictly because of their religion. And saying you think they ought to all be converted to Christianity and then everything wwill be all right, is so unbelieveably insulting to billions of people, and entirely defeats the purpose of establishing peace, harmony and balance in this world; instead this way of thought only serves to insure a future infinity of continued strife, intolerance, bigotry and violent death.

[BeardofPants]

Lief, my oma lived in holland during the war, and let me assure you, she was more than aware of what was going on in Germany during the war.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And this statement makes no sense, because everything changes. It is the nature of life, time and existence that everything is in a constant state of change. Just because there is a violent, radical, extremist and dangerous-to-civilised-humanity, terrorist fundy offshoot of the huge religion of Islam, does not make the entire Islamic religion evil and somehow inferior to Christianity and the Christian religion. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, right? Isn't this what Jesus said? And also, did you even take the time to read the LATimes article I posted here this morning, which reported about the Muslim leaders approaching the Dalai Lama and having a very peaceful, hopeful, progressive summit - Muslim and Buddhist, working together towards a peaceful solution, and with love? This counts as change and progress. Fact. And it is also a fact that the Muslim church leaders worldwide will not condone the radical violence of such nasty offshoots as Al Quaeda and suicide bombing, and violence & terror done whilst wearing the cloak of Islam - they HATE that!! They no more condone bin Laden than the Pope condoned Hitler! It is so unfair and counter-productive to denigrate an entire segment of the world's population strictly because of their religion. And saying you think they ought to all be converted to Christianity and then everything wwill be all right, is so unbelieveably insulting to billions of people, and entirely defeats the purpose of establishing peace, harmony and balance in this world; instead this way of thought only serves to insure a future infinity of continued strife, intolerance, bigotry and violent death.

No kidding.

[GreyMouser]

Should we (please) split this into a separate thread?
Hitler was not a Christian: Nazism was not based on Christianity.
Many Nazis were Christian; or to put it more logically and chronologically, many Christians became Nazis, but Nazi ideology was totally opposed to Christian ideals. The fact that many Nazis proclaimed themselves to be Christians- while trying to explain away the awkward fact that Jesus was Jewish- merely shows the ability of the human mind to hold contradictory viewpoints.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

but Nazi ideology was totally opposed to Christian ideals.

The key word being "ideals". The way people act, be they muslim or christian, is not a result of ideals, it is a result of their environment, how they grew up, what they experienced. The ideals they embrace are a result of this upbringing.

Attacking or trying to change one's ideals is simply dealing with the symptoms, not the underlying problems. Post-ww1 germany or the post-civil war deep south are examples of environments that were ripe for idealistic fervor, in one case the nazis and in another the KKK. The middle east during muhammed's time was a similar environment, as is today's environment in that same part of the world.

Why do you have a peaceful muslim in california and a violent one in the west bank? It's not because one is more devout than the other. It's not about belief systems at all. It's about the environment that person lives in. And if you want to change that, you work to change that environment, not their way of expressing their discontent.

[Lotesse]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
–Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

“National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.”

-Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938.

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933



Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.


I guess this means we really need a new thread to debate this "Was Hitler A Christian" hot topic. Time for a thread-split?

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. ....... . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
–Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

that is over a decade before he realigned his beliefs and practices--many people do change over time that which they believe

Originally Posted by Lotesse

"National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938.

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

Yet the movement was filled with mysticism, symolic ritual similar to the old germanic and norse gods

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. .....

yet those early years did not teach that-only his study after WWI began to change his views on non-christian peoples and the destiny and due of aryan peoples

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I guess this means we really need a new thread to debate this "Was Hitler A Christian" hot topic. Time for a thread-split?

Oh, God, I hope not.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I guess this means we really need a new thread to debate this "Was Hitler A Christian" hot topic. Time for a thread-split?

Nah, we can bring all this together by thinking about how Christendom, in guilt and horror at the Holocaust, has transplanted much of its fear and loathing onto Islam.

Recently, of course, we have seen this refocused more sharply for political ends. And that, in the end, is the only meaningful parallel with Hitler: exploiting and inflaming existing prejudices for political gain. If we allow them to get away with it, then the lessons of Nazism have not been learned.

Thanks for the compliment, btw, though I cannot claim to be particularly educated in this field. I did once review an excellent little book called "A Brief History of Blasphemy" by Richard Webster, which is a great source for historical context.

Bizarrely, it's the baby's favourite book: he always pulls it off the shelf and sits quietly turning over the pages. Must get a photo of that, one with the book's title visible, just in case he starts dating a minister's daughter in later life

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Well, according to that article, most historians say the German people didn't know. I don't have a source regarding the rest of the world (and haven't researched that yet), but I wonder if your history professor was one of the minority that has the alternate view.

Of course it's obvious that many Christians in Germany were anti-Semitic, and they knew there were highly discriminatory laws set up against the Jews. That doesn't mean they knew about the Holocaust. Knowing that your neighbor is being given an unfair deal isn't the same as knowing your neighbor is being tortured or murdered.

Lief, I'm not going to argue about it. Why do you think the question "Why wasn't Auschwitz bombed" asked? I saw many stories of Polish who knew about the extermination. The residents of the Ghettos knew about it! That is despite the fact they lived almost completely lonely. It's absurd to say the Germans didn't know what's going on.

Yet as I just pointed out, it's apparent that Islam hasn't changed.

But if religions can change - and I just proved they can - there's no point in talking about the atrocities the Muslims did 1000 years ago.

All I remember from the Old Testament is these nations attacking Israel, failing in their assaults, and being conquered. Perhaps plundered after being conquered, as well.

I doubt it's true. But what would you count as an attack? If the Moabites rebelled Israel after Israel conquered them, is it truly an attack?

Easy for you to say!

You think it was right to massacre the Aztecs? Or that there was no other possible way?

The Old Testament doesn't include commands like that. God commanded the Jews, "attack this group," or "attack that group," but he didn't say, "attack all unbelievers!". That's why after one group was attacked, Israel could stop attacking unless God commanded again. Islam is very different. It just gives general orders for jihad against unbelievers, and modern Muslims as well as Muslims throughout history have acted on his words, among other things, of course.

I frankly don't know enough about Islam. (I suppose Spock is going to quote this? ) But really, if a Muslim tells you Jihad doesn't have to be a physical struggle I don't find your argument very persuading.

Also, the jihad is against pagans not Jews of Christians.

Okay. They treated them better than Christians of that time did, anyway. Contrast how the United States, a country that's more than 80% Christian, or Uganda, another country that's 85% Christian, with the way modern Muslim states treat non-Muslims.

Exactly my point. Therefore you cannot base your arguments on the past. Religions change!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

That is correct. The facts are the facts, whether you or I or any other human being wishes to believe or disbelieve them. Believing the sky is purple does not make it a fact that it is purple. Believing that Adolph Hitler was not a christian does not erase the fact that he was, indeed, a christian, not an atheist, not agnostic, not muslim, not buddhist, but christian.

It does not erase your claim that he was Christian. I've presented evidence concerning his "Christianity" in previous posts (particularly some of my last posts of the Muslims thread), evidence you haven't responded to yet.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Like I said, not a very nice or good christian, but a christian, nonetheless, just as bin Laden is a muslim, but not a very nice or good muslim. Why do you struggle so hard against this fact, Lief? Is it because you, being a christian yourself, are loathe to have your religion and faith in any way identified with such a powerfully evil figure of recent history?

Obviously, I would hate to think that someone like that would claim to be a member of my religion. However, I am very happy to find that the facts I cited in the Muslims thread show clearly he was not a Christian, and that my history professor agrees with that.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And most first-hand reports and journals of the people will say otherwise.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

You think Anne Frank's family's protectors were unaware of what was going on in Germany, with the genocidal campaign? Why would they have hidden the Franks if they were unaware?

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Lief, I'm not going to argue about it. Why do you think the question "Why wasn't Auschwitz bombed" asked? I saw many stories of Polish who knew about the extermination. The residents of the Ghettos knew about it! That is despite the fact they lived almost completely lonely. It's absurd to say the Germans didn't know what's going on.

One point is that the only reports or journals most people will look at are those that do say they knew about the Holocaust. The others aren't interesting enough to be put in museums or other places you might normally look. It would be boring to most people to look at documents unrelated to the Holocaust, written by a population that didn't know about the Holocaust. So naturally you'll only find those people who did know have their accounts in the museums.

Historians are more thorough, however. They go through the boring as well as the interesting records.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Of course they knew!! And, of course historians will do what they do best, that is, do their after-the-fact spin doctoring and try to convince the newer generations who were not alive during the time to believe that the rest of the world were clueless as to what was happening to millions upon millions of europeans, over a period of years - they are trying to save as much face as they can!

If you and Radagast want to disagree with the majority of historians on this, you can go ahead and do so.

Lotesse, about the speeches you posted links to, I have two comments. First, it's logical that Hitler would want to put on a pretense at Christianity, seeing as he would have been aware he was living in a country that was 12/13 of the way Christian.

A second point I wanted to raise was that in the second two speeches you pointed out, the 1933 and 1938 speeches, though it was clear he believed in a "God," there was nothing specific that pointed to Christianity.

The earlier speech Spock already responded about, and I'd like to see how that discussion plays out before commenting.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And that's just in Holland, never mind Germany, Austria, and all the other European countries. And that is obviously just one very famous example to use to illustrate a point. Obviously, there will be almost countless other examples of the same kind to prove the same point, that non-Jewish citizens of european countries, including and especially Germany & Austria, were more than well aware of the torture & elimination campaign against their Jewish neighbors.

Mere assumption.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Have you ever even read a transcript of one of Hitler's famous speeches? You think those millions of German citizens had their ears plugged whilst he was instructing them all that Jews were pigs, and every one of them ought to be eradicated? His Hitler Youth programs? Etcetera and so on? They knew.

We're already agreed that many Germans were strongly anti-Semitic. I don't think he said all Jews should be eradicated in any of his public speeches.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Just use your brain, Lief; how do you think tens of millions of europeans could be systematically "vanished" in cattle carts and Kristalnacht-typew situations over such a short span of time, and no one have any idea that this segment of society were being tortured and exterminated? Use your brain, my friend, use the brain.

The officially accepted number of Jews killed in the Holocaust is 6 million, though it certainly was larger. How much larger, I don't know. I'm also not saying that no one had any idea what was going on, but I am saying that very few did.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And this statement makes no sense, because everything changes. It is the nature of life, time and existence that everything is in a constant state of change. Just because there is a violent, radical, extremist and dangerous-to-civilised-humanity, terrorist fundy offshoot of the huge religion of Islam, does not make the entire Islamic religion evil and somehow inferior to Christianity and the Christian religion. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, right? Isn't this what Jesus said?

And then he said, "Go, and leave your life of sin."

Parts of Christianity have remained the same throughout history, as I pointed out on the other thread. Islam has always had a strongly warlike tendency. This is just returning.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And also, did you even take the time to read the LATimes article I posted here this morning, which reported about the Muslim leaders approaching the Dalai Lama and having a very peaceful, hopeful, progressive summit - Muslim and Buddhist, working together towards a peaceful solution, and with love? This counts as change and progress. Fact. And it is also a fact that the Muslim church leaders worldwide will not condone the radical violence of such nasty offshoots as Al Quaeda and suicide bombing, and violence & terror done whilst wearing the cloak of Islam - they HATE that!!

You can't say the incident with the Dalai Lama means Muslim church leaders worldwide are intent on peace. The evidence of the occurrence with the Dalai Lama doesn't prove that.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

It is so unfair and counter-productive to denigrate an entire segment of the world's population strictly because of their religion.

I think there are many admirable points to the Muslim faith as well, points I have spoken of to Serenoli and at the beginning of my comments on the Muslims thread.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I doubt it's true. But what would you count as an attack? If the Moabites rebelled Israel after Israel conquered them, is it truly an attack?

Look, I've read the Old Testament and I don't know what you're talking about! You're giving only guesswork. Please get out your Old Testament and show me where they hunted down innocent countries for gold or other cases of injustice, for I just don't recall that at all.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

But if religions can change - and I just proved they can - there's no point in talking about the atrocities the Muslims did 1000 years ago.

I've talked about their actions straight up to the modern era, starting in the past. There has been only a brief interlude of peace with Islam.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

You think it was right to massacre the Aztecs? Or that there was no other possible way?

I doubt that there would have been any other possible way. It's not that easy to peacefully convince a people to give up their culture and their religion. And before someone jumps on me over this point, saying, "then how can you advocate trying to bring Islam into Christianity?" let me just answer that it's because Christianity is full of the power of the Holy Spirit. Without the help of God it wouldn't be possible to make such a change easily, and the conquistadores, whether they claimed to be Christian or not, were not full of the Holy Spirit's power. The only reason I think Islam could be changed so that it becomes Christian is that I believe God does incredible deeds.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

But really, if a Muslim tells you Jihad doesn't have to be a physical struggle I don't find your argument very persuading.

History speaks for itself. The history books say Mohammed violently conquered Saudi Arabia, his immediate successor violently conquered all those tribes all over again when they rebelled on Mohammed's death, and his successors waged a violent war that nearly conquered the world. This is no peaceful jihad, and as it's right after Mohammed and during his lifetime, these people would have had the very best understanding of what jihad meant.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Also, the jihad is against pagans not Jews of Christians.

This is not true. Spock presented a quote from the Qur'an in which Mohammed commanded his followers to conquer everyone, "even the people of the Book," unless they paid Jizya. Christians followed that order when they attacked the Christian Byzantine Empire and conquered it. Al Qaeda terrorist Moussaoui said the same at his trial, saying the People of the Book must be made to pay jizya and submit to Muslims, or they must die (not that I'm arguing here that he's interpreting his religion right- I'm just showing by an example that the belief continues to this day).

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Exactly my point. Therefore you cannot base your arguments on the past. Religions change!

Islam has never changed. That is visible all through its history, until European Imperialism took away their power, and now it's visible again, becoming stronger even in the West, in spite of the fact that most extremist groups lack political power.

Also, I'm not convinced Judaism has really changed either. The actions of Israel are often of a violent, aggressive manner. Of course there are good reasons for some of this violence. Self-defense is completely legitimate. But some of their actions have been land grabs at other people's expense. While I know most of Israel is secular, there are a lot of religious Jews there too. I'm just not sure, on that one. The Jews have lacked political power, and it could be argued that that's one of the reasons they haven't been violent.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

don't be ridiculous.

And on Hitler we'll have to agree to disagree. But there are plenty of other examples of opressive Christian rulers.

But that doesn't even matter. The point was and still is is that there has been plenty of Christian violence in the past 1000 years.

I'm not denying that. I am saying Islam is responsible for significantly more violence.

At the risk of seeming rude, I'm going to break up one of your sentences to respond to it piece by piece.

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

I'm getting the impression from Lief Erikson that Islam is inherently violent

Good, because I think it is.

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

and hasn't really changed EVER

Liberalism has become dominant in modern Islam in the last few centuries since European imperialism, but it is losing ground right now to extremism. Liberalism also is a very recent phenomenon in Islam. Liberalism is a significant change, but it looks as though it has been really only a temporary phase.

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

and that he doesn't even think that Judaism has changed in the past 2 thousand years or so....... i guess we're a bunch of violent people too. We'd oppress the whole world if we only had the means.

I don't think Israel ever, historically or in modern days, has tried to oppress the world. I have never seen a passage comparable to jihad in the Old Testament.

Also, I am not generalizing to all Jews or all Muslims. Many Muslims are liberal, and many Jews are liberal. There also are fundamentalist Muslims, and there are fundamentalist Jews.

Also, I know there have been some changes in the way the religion has been practiced. I know that modern Israel doesn't follow the violent laws God gave ancient Israel, such as stoning or burning people. I assume even fundamentalist Jews don't think that these laws are meant to apply to modern times. The "eye for an eye" exact justice hasn't changed to "love your enemy," though, so far as I've seen. That's what I meant. I wasn't at all clear in that post though, I admit.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Lief, my oma lived in holland during the war, and let me assure you, she was more than aware of what was going on in Germany during the war.

Did you read this, Lief, or not?

[BeardofPants]

Yes, I'd like to see your response to my oma's first-hand accounts of the war, lief. She has on more than one occasion relayed to me what it was like to live in fear during the war, subsisting on nothing but tulip-bulb soup. Trust me, people were aware of what those nazi-@#$Rers were up to.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

That they were silent about Hitler (the churches didn't endorse him either, even at the height of his power!) does not mean they approved of him.

Funny you use that as a defense since so many christians complain about the silence of a lot of the Muslim leadership today towards violence.

[Lief Erikson]

Well, it becomes a bit more understandable on the part of the Christians in Germany when one considers that the Gestapo were in full power at this time. There would have been an element of fear that I don't think exists in modern society.