gandalfs memory

monkey10120 · 04-16-2009, 03:10 PM

when gandalf comes back why does he think he is saruman. i know he was taken back to lorien and healed but why does he not remember his name or who he really is?

Gordis · 04-16-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkey10120

when gandalf comes back why does he think he is saruman. i know he was taken back to lorien and healed but why does he not remember his name or who he really is?

Old age identity crisis aggravated by post-traumatic syndrome....

brownjenkins · 04-17-2009, 04:44 PM

Too much pipe weed!

Tinman · 05-08-2009, 04:41 PM

alzheimer's

inked · 05-11-2009, 09:05 AM

Could be that dying and being re-bodied is bit much even for a Maiar. The cross circuitry of the brain might have gotten a little discombobulated in the process. Only the highest is capable of entering fully into the lowest - as noted by CS Lewis - in regard to the Incarnation.

Lefty Scaevola · 05-11-2009, 04:14 PM

I think it is more that the Istari were only allowed a limited incarnation, so that that could live and work among Men and elves in a limited capacity, not as gods. This limited the amount of knowledge and memories that could take with them into that incanation. The set of memories that Gandalf was alloted in his 2nd incation was not the entirely the same as in the first, becasue his mission had been a bit altered.

Varokhâr · 05-11-2009, 05:05 PM

I agree that it was probably the sheer trauma of the reincarnation process that caused Gandalf any confusion. Restoring a life to full working order, and transforming him as was done, was bound to be a major undertaking, so difficulty in immediately adjusting isn't terribly surprising.

Gordis · 05-12-2009, 03:08 AM

And note that by the time Gandalf the White first meets Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, he had already spent about a month recovering in Lorien. Perhaps initially he remembered even less, but was briefed by Galadriel on G the Gray's former life, on the Quest, on Saruman's treachery etc.

Sure his attitude has changed considerably: first thing he does is the OPEN display of his Maia powers - a thing he was absolutely forbidden to do in his "Grey" life:

Quote:

The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.

It looks like most of the restrictions put on the Istari were lifted for the final part of his mission.

The Dread Pirate Roberts · 05-12-2009, 02:52 PM

I don't think the premise of the OP's question has been established. Gandalf didn't think he was Saruman, nor does he forget who he really is, not in the sense that you or I may forget things on a daily basis.

Lefty Scaevola · 05-12-2009, 06:54 PM

Indeed, the memory bit is much more subtle.
"Gandalf" "Yes that was the anme, I was Gandalf"
"I have forgotten much that I thought I Knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten"

Coffeehouse · 05-12-2009, 07:23 PM

I don't think Gandalf thought he was Sarumann. He was simply saying that he had taken the place that once was Sarumann's, being the White.

For me the colours of the wizards is quite important. The Blue Wizards are blue.. and the color of vastness is blue (the oceans, the skies). Where do you get lost? In the vastness.. the Blue Wizards got lost. They were lost in the blue

Radagast.. easy one right. Radagast the Brown, of the Earth, of beasts and birds.

Gandalf the grey.. the wise but also the in-between, the question mark, the wizard of nuance.

Sarumann the White.. the highest form of wizardry. The most innocent of colors.. the purest

Ah but then Sarumann turns into the multi-colored (the rainbow colours) wizard. The wizard that has broken the purity of white. The wizard that has taken the highest form of wizardy and broken it down into individual parts. The wizard who took his vision and made it into greed, and who began seeing the world as something mechanical.
Sarumann the multicoloured is thus the wizard that went too far, broke the magic of white like rays of light break upon a prism.

Gandalf attains the white robe when Sarumann loses it. Sarumann falls and Gandalf rises (again).

Voronwen · 05-13-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I don't think Gandalf thought he was Sarumann. He was simply saying that he had taken the place that once was Sarumann's, being the White.

This is how i always interpreted it, too.

His slight confusion reminds me of the type that someone has when they are just waking up from a long, deep sleep full of frightfully bizarre dreams.

Noldori · 05-15-2009, 10:46 PM

Well, after all, he did kind of die. That has to be a frightfully bizarre dream in itself.

thekingofgondor · 03-28-2011, 04:22 AM

Gandalf makes mention of how he "strayed out of thought and time... The stars wheeled overhead, and every day was as long as a life age of the earth..." Since he was not Gandalf before coming to Middle-earth, and was only there for what amounted to a short amount of time in his lifespan, coupled with the fact that time seemed to be extended for him between his death and reincarnation, it would be like a man in his fifties suddenly meeting a group of people he hadn't seen since he was in his twenties, and they call him by some nickname he hadn't used since then. It wasn't that Gandalf forgot who he was, it was simply that, to him, it had been a long time since he remembered being called that (especially since the elves and dwarves had their own names for him, and since returning, he had primarily been in contact with the eagles and elves up until that point), as well as the fact that he had changed and was no longer "Gandalf the Grey" as Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas knew him.

GrayMouser · 03-28-2011, 06:18 AM

I like it

Thorir Orcbane · 03-28-2011, 03:47 PM

I think that as Gandalf's role as the Grey allowed him to serve distinctly in and for that purpose, including all aliases,titles,memories, etc he had with him in that role. As the White, however, he was just 'beginning', per se, and he had only a shadow of his former memory at the time. Or just enough for him to remember good aquantances and friends, along with his mission. It's like the same computer drive but different users, I would say.

04-16-2009, 03:10 PM	#1
monkey10120 Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 16	gandalfs memory when gandalf comes back why does he think he is saruman. i know he was taken back to lorien and healed but why does he not remember his name or who he really is?

04-17-2009, 04:44 PM	#3
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	Too much pipe weed! __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

05-11-2009, 09:05 AM	#5
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Could be that dying and being re-bodied is bit much even for a Maiar. The cross circuitry of the brain might have gotten a little discombobulated in the process. Only the highest is capable of entering fully into the lowest - as noted by CS Lewis - in regard to the Incarnation. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

05-11-2009, 04:14 PM	#6
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	I think it is more that the Istari were only allowed a limited incarnation, so that that could live and work among Men and elves in a limited capacity, not as gods. This limited the amount of knowledge and memories that could take with them into that incanation. The set of memories that Gandalf was alloted in his 2nd incation was not the entirely the same as in the first, becasue his mission had been a bit altered. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 03-28-2011 at 05:57 PM.

05-11-2009, 05:05 PM	#7
Varokhâr Sapling Join Date: May 2009 Location: the Akallabêth Posts: 8	I agree that it was probably the sheer trauma of the reincarnation process that caused Gandalf any confusion. Restoring a life to full working order, and transforming him as was done, was bound to be a major undertaking, so difficulty in immediately adjusting isn't terribly surprising. __________________

05-08-2009, 04:41 PM	#4
Tinman Enting Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 68	alzheimer's

05-12-2009, 02:52 PM	#9
The Dread Pirate Roberts Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 987	I don't think the premise of the OP's question has been established. Gandalf didn't think he was Saruman, nor does he forget who he really is, not in the sense that you or I may forget things on a daily basis. __________________ ~The DPR "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."

05-12-2009, 06:54 PM	#10
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Indeed, the memory bit is much more subtle. "Gandalf" "Yes that was the anme, I was Gandalf" "I have forgotten much that I thought I Knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten" __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

05-12-2009, 07:23 PM	#11
Coffeehouse Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen Posts: 2,145	I don't think Gandalf thought he was Sarumann. He was simply saying that he had taken the place that once was Sarumann's, being the White. For me the colours of the wizards is quite important. The Blue Wizards are blue.. and the color of vastness is blue (the oceans, the skies). Where do you get lost? In the vastness.. the Blue Wizards got lost. They were lost in the blue Radagast.. easy one right. Radagast the Brown, of the Earth, of beasts and birds. Gandalf the grey.. the wise but also the in-between, the question mark, the wizard of nuance. Sarumann the White.. the highest form of wizardry. The most innocent of colors.. the purest Ah but then Sarumann turns into the multi-colored (the rainbow colours) wizard. The wizard that has broken the purity of white. The wizard that has taken the highest form of wizardy and broken it down into individual parts. The wizard who took his vision and made it into greed, and who began seeing the world as something mechanical. Sarumann the multicoloured is thus the wizard that went too far, broke the magic of white like rays of light break upon a prism. Gandalf attains the white robe when Sarumann loses it. Sarumann falls and Gandalf rises (again). __________________ "Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 05-12-2009 at 07:24 PM.

05-15-2009, 10:46 PM	#13
Noldori Sapling Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 9	Well, after all, he did kind of die. That has to be a frightfully bizarre dream in itself. __________________ A Elbereth Gilthoniel! silivren penna m?riel o menel aglar elenath! Na-chaered palan-d?riel o galadhremmin ennorath, Fanuilos, le linnathon nef aear, s?* nef aearon!

03-28-2011, 04:22 AM	#14
thekingofgondor Sapling Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: The Newest of Jersey Posts: 11	Gandalf makes mention of how he "strayed out of thought and time... The stars wheeled overhead, and every day was as long as a life age of the earth..." Since he was not Gandalf before coming to Middle-earth, and was only there for what amounted to a short amount of time in his lifespan, coupled with the fact that time seemed to be extended for him between his death and reincarnation, it would be like a man in his fifties suddenly meeting a group of people he hadn't seen since he was in his twenties, and they call him by some nickname he hadn't used since then. It wasn't that Gandalf forgot who he was, it was simply that, to him, it had been a long time since he remembered being called that (especially since the elves and dwarves had their own names for him, and since returning, he had primarily been in contact with the eagles and elves up until that point), as well as the fact that he had changed and was no longer "Gandalf the Grey" as Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas knew him.

03-28-2011, 06:18 AM	#15
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	I like it __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

03-28-2011, 03:47 PM	#16
Thorir Orcbane Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Where the shadows of the ancient world still dwell. Posts: 34	I think that as Gandalf's role as the Grey allowed him to serve distinctly in and for that purpose, including all aliases,titles,memories, etc he had with him in that role. As the White, however, he was just 'beginning', per se, and he had only a shadow of his former memory at the time. Or just enough for him to remember good aquantances and friends, along with his mission. It's like the same computer drive but different users, I would say. __________________ " A wizard is never late , nor is He ever early , He arrives precisely when He means to." -Gandalf "Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!" - Elendil/Aragorn "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve" - Bilbo "No, no, no! Who gave the short kid Desert Eagles?"

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