What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR

[Wally]

Although the LOTR trilogy was pretty good, it was far from perfect and much of it strayed terribly from Tolkien, such as the Elves at Helm's Deep.

IMHO, what really kept the series from being a disaster was the strength of Tolkien's work, a work so powerful that even those two dopey women, Fran and Philippa, couldn't screw it up too badly. In contrast, compare LOTR to PJ's next effort, King Kong, to get a better feel for just how totally incompetent those two screenwriters were (and are).

My list of complaints include the dumb Arwen dream sequences, the 'dramatic' loss of Aragorn over the cliff during the fight en route to Helm's Deep, the aforementioned Elves, the numerous pointless changes to Tolkien's work (such as Frodo correctly guessing the password into Moria instead of Pippin [or was it Merry?]), and the omission of incredibly important plot points from these works (such as Denethor's use of the palantir). I am no PJ fanboy and do not hesitate to take him to task for these sins. For $300MM and 2 years of shooting, these films should have been perfect. Does anyone else have an opinion here?

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Wally

Does anyone else have an opinion here?

Arwen sure is purty

[brownjenkins]

I think he did a good job all told. Out of the thousands of movies made based upon books, only a handful equal or exceed the book version. Many are terrible, many are average, and many are pretty good. I'd put LOTR in the pretty good category.

My litmus test was not how much I liked it, since I have too much book baggage to be objective, but how much my kids did. And the enjoyed them quite a lot (though their major complaint was the drawn out dream sequences as well ).

[tolkienfan]

I agree that it wasn't perfect, and there were too many changes.
However, I wouldn't call Fran Walsh (or Philippia Boyens) dopey. And I'm not sure what you're trying to say about King Kong, as the screenplay was by Fran Walsh and Philippia Boyens in King Kong as well. (or are you saying that the screenplay was incompetent in King Kong?)

[Kevin McIntyre]

Making a cinematic version of the Lord of the Rings is a very difficult challenge and changes in the story will always occur whoever were to make the movie(s).
Firstly the number of characters that appear in the book is much to high for movies (don't you hate when someone leans over and says 'now who is that again'). With this in mind the changes that I most disliked are:
Elves at Helms Deep - I need a good explanation for this
Entmoot - why did Merry and Pippen have to fool Treebeard into attacking Isengard when you go through the trouble of filming the Entmoot.
Faramir - I think PJ slipped on this- Faramir is a truly great character and is treated poorly in the movie (imho)
Hems Deep - the battle is great, however Theoden decision to go there in the movie is not correct at all, and seems only done to make it appear that Aragorn is dead - not cool
I also did not appreciate the whole sequences of Elrond and Galadriel telekinetic communication - just too hokey.

However as a fan of cinema - PJ's movies are an incredible achievment and the few issues I have over a 12 hour movie seems like quibbling.

If you want to see a scene by scene recreation of the LOTR it would have to be done on TV where a scene like The Shadow of the Past can get a proper treatment. This could work if whatever network signed on was willing to produce a show with a finite storyline and ending.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Kevin McIntyre

Elves at Helms Deep - I need a good explanation for this

I suppose that, in part, this was to make the elves look a bit more involved. From reading the books you find out about all the behind-the-scenes work the elves did, along with some straight-out fighting on the part of those from Lorien, just not in Helm's Deep. Also, Elladan and Elrohir helped in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. So, while the event itself is not accurate, there is some basis for getting the theme of direct elven help across.

Originally Posted by Kevin McIntyre

Entmoot - why did Merry and Pippen have to fool Treebeard into attacking Isengard when you go through the trouble of filming the Entmoot.

That wasn't too far from the book. The basic theme, that Merry and Pippen helped push the Ents into action, but that it was also a reaction to Saruman's destruction, is basically right.

Originally Posted by Kevin McIntyre

Faramir - I think PJ slipped on this- Faramir is a truly great character and is treated poorly in the movie (imho)

I agree Faramir was off-base from the book, but he still comes out as a great character, maybe even better because, instead of acting noble just because he was just born as that kind of person, he actually makes the choice against his better judgement. In some ways, the movie Faramir is a more "real" character.

Originally Posted by Kevin McIntyre

Hems Deep - the battle is great, however Theoden decision to go there in the movie is not correct at all, and seems only done to make it appear that Aragorn is dead - not cool

The one other quibble my kids had about the movies is how many times someone is presented as killed (i.e. frodo) and/or dead (i.e. gandalf/aragorn), and then miraculously come back.

Originally Posted by Kevin McIntyre

I also did not appreciate the whole sequences of Elrond and Galadriel telekinetic communication - just too hokey.

I agree 100%. I would have editted those right out.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Faramir does come off better in the extended editions as it shows some backstory - although in the book it is clear Faramir made a choice - a choice that Denethor ridicules :
"For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift."

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Kevin McIntyre

Faramir - I think PJ slipped on this- Faramir is a truly great character and is treated poorly in the movie (imho)

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/faramir.html

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Kevin McIntyre

Elves at Helms Deep - I need a good explanation for this
Entmoot - why did Merry and Pippen have to fool Treebeard into attacking Isengard when you go through the trouble of filming the Entmoot.
Faramir - I think PJ slipped on this- Faramir is a truly great character and is treated poorly in the movie (imho)
I also did not appreciate the whole sequences of Elrond and Galadriel telekinetic communication - just too hokey.

Elves at Helms Deep: emphasizes the interrelationship between the races and the the Elven leadership's decision to play an active, engaged role together with men in countering Sauron when they could have just ran (or rode) for the hills (or the Gray Havens).

Faramir - have you read this? http://www.istad.org/tolkien/faramir.html
According to the script writers, to have Faramir simply pass immediately on the Ring after all that have been emphasized previously as to its irresistability and utter corruptibility would have been unbelievable to most viewers.

Elrond and Galadrial's "teleknetic communication" - 100% true to the book. From the Tolkien Meta-FAQ:

Was there "telepathy" in Middle-earth?

Although it is not emphasized in the books, direct communication of thought from mind to mind was certainly part of Middle-earth. This is stated directly in the chapter "Many Partings" of LotR, when Celeborn, Galadriel, Gandalf, and Elrond lingered before parting:

...they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

Another example is the voice Frodo hears in his mind on Amon Hen, saying, "Take off the Ring!", which was that of Gandalf as he "sat in a high place, and... strove with the Dark Tower" ("The White Rider"). ("The Black Gate is Closed" confirms that this was Gandalf, when it suggests that Frodo felt Gandalf's thought on him, "as he had upon Amon Hen".)

Tolkien discusses the details of this "telepathy" at length in the essay "Osanwe-kenta: Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", which was published in the journal Vinyar Tengwar #39 (available from http://www.elvish.org/). It seems that all minds had this ability, but that it was "dimmed" whenever it passed through a physical body. Elves could therefore use it more easily than humans, as their wills had greater control over their bodies. The essay contains many more fascinating details, but there is not space even to summarize them here.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Elves at Helms Deep: emphasizes the interrelationship between the races and the the Elven leadership's decision to play an active, engaged role together with men in countering Sauron when they could have just ran (or rode) for the hills (or the Gray Havens).

but this is in direct conflict with Tolkien's idea of the elves at the end of the third age - the elves were fading.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Elrond and Galadrial's "teleknetic communication" - 100% true to the book. From the Tolkien Meta-FAQ:

Was there "telepathy" in Middle-earth?

Although it is not emphasized in the books, direct communication of thought from mind to mind was certainly part of Middle-earth. This is stated directly in the chapter "Many Partings" of LotR, when Celeborn, Galadriel, Gandalf, and Elrond lingered before parting:

...they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

Another example is the voice Frodo hears in his mind on Amon Hen, saying, "Take off the Ring!", which was that of Gandalf as he "sat in a high place, and... strove with the Dark Tower" ("The White Rider"). ("The Black Gate is Closed" confirms that this was Gandalf, when it suggests that Frodo felt Gandalf's thought on him, "as he had upon Amon Hen".)

Tolkien discusses the details of this "telepathy" at length in the essay "Osanwe-kenta: Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", which was published in the journal Vinyar Tengwar #39 (available from http://www.elvish.org/). It seems that all minds had this ability, but that it was "dimmed" whenever it passed through a physical body. Elves could therefore use it more easily than humans, as their wills had greater control over their bodies. The essay contains many more fascinating details, but there is not space even to summarize them here.

True, however - but in the movie they are hundreds of miles away from each other and just seems hokey. Just seems to me that PJ signed Cate Blanchett to the role of Galadriel and wanted to give here more to do (and why not she is amazing).

[Jon S.]

We've quickly exhausted what can be said on the other point so let me just respond respectfully to this one:

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Elves at Helms Deep: emphasizes the interrelationship between the races and the the Elven leadership's decision to play an active, engaged role together with men in countering Sauron when they could have just ran (or rode) for the hills (or the Gray Havens).[/B]

Originally Posted by Kevin McIntyre

but this is in direct conflict with Tolkien's idea of the elves at the end of the third age - the elves were fading.

Quick response. There's no inherent conflict between the Elves, in general, fading and a group of them coming to men's aide at this time. In fact, as we know from the book, Elves were engaged in many ways and in various fronts opposing Sauron and even allying themselves with men. The difference between the book and movie is not one of principle but of degree.

As Michael Martinez put it:

>> Tolkien wrote that the Third Age was "the fading years of the Eldar. For long they were at peace, wielding the Three Rings while Sauron slept and the One Ring was lost; but they attempted nothing new, living in memory of past." (The Return Of The King, p. 365). Perhaps they established no new kingdoms, but the Elvish songs relating the tragic stories of Nimrodel and the Ents' search for the Ent-wives show that the Elves continued to flourish and interact with other peoples around them long after the war was over.

P.S. In case you're wondering, yes, I do understand why many people, not just you, found the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep disconcerting/contrary to Tolkien's story. As a long-time Tolkien fanatic, however, I've never felt the need for the movie to mirror the book in every regard and I dug the Elves - no, not all of them, not Legolas's Green Elves of Mirkwood, for example, but Galadrial's Elves of Lorien - showing up to help.

[Jon S.]

P.P.S. Here's another POV on this subject which, may I say, is remarkably similar to my own.

>> Arrival of the Elves at Helm's Deep

>> The discussion between Elrond and Galadriel, and the subsequent arrival of a force of elves at Helm's Deep was (IMO) a great addition to the movie. In the books, and in the first movie, the first war with Sauron involved an alliance of men, elves, and dwarves. While it is true that the age of elves is passing, they are as yet a force in the Middle Earth. In the first movie, elves were portrayed almost as selfish pacifists who refused to get involved.

>> Anyone who has read the Appendices in the Return of the King knows that in fact, Sauron had several forces attacking the dwarves, elves, and men separately, so the non-human races ARE involved, they are just split into racial groups instead of all banded together as in the first war against Sauron.

>> By elves coming to Helm's Deep, it shows that the old alliance is still in affect (though fading) and that the non-human races are still involved.

http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~sbeck/pers/ttt.html

[Peter_20]

I find it annoying how film versions of books always feel so damn rushed.
I mean, the movie starts out like "Frodo, this Ring is dangerous - oh no! take it to Bree, right this second!"

Then they arrive at Bree AT ONCE, and suddenly Aragorn bumps into their room and magically becomes their ally in a few seconds.
They could at least have had him chat with them for a while, so you got a feeling that he actually was included into the group.

The movie also felt way too Hollywood-ish; Elijah Wood is too much of a "cute boy for the 12-year-old girls", and I think that he'd come off much better as a character if he were a bit more reserved and mysterious.

[Rían]

The movies get enough right, IMO, that it's worth it - I just mentally "hold my breath" thru the terrible parts (and substitute the real story in my head)

[me9996]

One thing that realy bugs me is the army from Minus Morgal.

I'm pretty sure that it's wraiths in the book.
And even if it isn't, the army of orcs in the movie doesn't remotely fit the discription in the book!

From the book:

All the host was clad in sable, dark as night. Against the wan walls
and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black
figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards
in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving
like ordered shadows.

[Peter_20]

Oh, and Orcs crawling up from the ground =/= corrupted Elves.

[durinsbane2244]

Originally Posted by Peter_20

The movie also felt way too Hollywood-ish; Elijah Wood is too much of a "cute boy for the 12-year-old girls", and I think that he'd come off much better as a character if he were a bit more reserved and mysterious.

ha, he was also too much of a 'cute boy for twelve-year-old boys'!

[Peter_20]

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

ha, he was also too much of a 'cute boy for twelve-year-old boys'!

Haha, yeah.
2Look at me, ain't my big eyes cute?" XD

I mean, I have nothing against Hollywood, but it just doesn't seem right when the world of Arda sometimes feels like an American suburb or whatever.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Peter_20

I mean, I have nothing against Hollywood, but it just doesn't seem right when the world of Arda sometimes feels like an American suburb or whatever.

American suburbs???
Does New Zeland look like the american suburbs?!!
Besides the movie has been made by a new zelander, who lives and works THERE, not in the Hollywood. Thank God for it, because I am shuddering as imagining a Hollywood version. Ralph Bakshi's is more than enough.

[Peter_20]

Originally Posted by Olmer

American suburbs???
Does New Zeland look like the american suburbs?!!
Besides the movie has been made by a new zelander, who lives and works THERE, not in the Hollywood. Thank God for it, because I am shuddering as imagining a Hollywood version. Ralph Bakshi's is more than enough.

I guess I wasn't very clear. XD

I meant that the movies sometimes *feel* like Hollywood at some moments; they give off the same feelings as a Hollywood movie.

That's not good, because Arda and Hollywood aren't exactly the same things.