Arwen vs Glorfindel

[Peregrina_Took]

Originally Posted by Galin

Then possibly have Legolas meet Aragorn and the hobbits... sure it's not great, but if all directors really must run away from introducing 'a character that essentially vanishes later', like Glorfindel, well in that case I find it superior to using Arwen here, at least.

They had Legolas instead of Glorfindel in the animated Bakshi film (I think I spelled that right). The problem with Legolas is that even in the book, he's a minor character. An important minor character, but a minor character none the less. I guess they thought Arwen had more relevancy.

[Galin]

That's true concerning the animated film, and I wonder if that influenced Jackson's decision a bit (it had already been done).

But Jackson's (or his team's) statement reads...

'... you know, there were really logical reasons to do this. One of the problems with The Lord of the Rings is that there are so many characters and to introduce Glorfindel in this scene and then to have Glorfindel drop out of the story, um, a few minutes later and to have to then introduce Arwen at Rivendell -- it just seemed like it would be introduction upon introduction, and there's so many that we -- we felt we needed to somehow condense characters, uh, reduce them and condense them.'

Legolas doesn't drop out of the story of course, so if he is arguably more minor by comparison to others in the tale, that seems beside the point in any case (this point anyway).

To my mind using Legolas could have solved what is noted here as 'problematic' -- at least according to the filmmakers.

[EllethValatari]

Originally Posted by Noldori

Okay... Arwen does not ride Asfaloth or bring Frodo to Rivendell. What the heck was up with Jackson taking out Glorfindel?

I would guess that PJ did this to make the romance between Arwen and Aragorn more prominent than it is in the books. There is a common misconception that movies do not do well without a good romance.

[GrayMouser]

Storywise, it would make far less sense to send Legolas out to find Frodo and company, since he's an Elf from Mirkwood who's never been to Rivendell- he's the guy you're going to send out looking through the trackless wastes of Wilderland?

Plus you lose the "Gathering of the Free People" scen at the Council- though I suppose you could put in "an Elf from Mirkwood whom you've already met".
Especially to somone who hasn't read the books, to who all these Elves look alike anyway.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Storywise, it would make far less sense to send Legolas out to find Frodo and company, since he's an Elf from Mirkwood who's never been to Rivendell- he's the guy you're going to send out looking through the trackless wastes of Wilderland?

Far less sense than 'sending' Arwen Undomiel alone? if so I can't agree.

I can't recall for certain, but I don't think Jackson even bothered to really explain -- internally in the films I mean -- why Elrond's beloved daughter turns up in the woods, or what actually happened that led to her presence here.


Jackson fans have tried by attempting to draw comparisons to Luthien, but again, general comparisons of character do not substitute for actual storyline in any case. Tolkien's tale of Beren and Luthien is a specific story with its own particular circumstances and motives... and simply pointing to Luthien's helping of Beren in a wholly different context and set of circumstances does not automatically serve to explain Jackson's Arwen substitution -- not serve well enough for me anyway.

Plus you lose the "Gathering of the Free People" scen at the Council- though I suppose you could put in "an Elf from Mirkwood whom you've already met". Especially to somone who hasn't read the books, to who all these Elves look alike anyway.

Yes I submit that only people who have read the book will really stop and wonder why Legolas of Mirkwood was sent; but Jackson has already raised that question for book readers with Arwen in any case.

The non-Tolkien audience is going to see 'Elf from Elf realm' here, and the Tolkien audience would have to accept that although an internal detail has been altered for arguable cinematic reasons (but not wholly certainly 'necessary' cinematic reasons, it might be said), at least the scene from the book can be followed fairly closely, and a character is introduced who will be part of the rest of the tale.

[GrayMouser]

I assume for the same reason as in the book- as Glorfindel says, he sends out those few who can ride openly against the Black Riders- and since Tolkien says:

"In all such things not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal...there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."

Arwen is a princess of one of the most distinguished houses of the Eldar, granddaughter of Celeborn and Galadriel on her mother's side, and of Earendil and Elwing on her father's side; by Tolkien's own words she'd be nearly as good as her brothers; she would by any measure be one of the most powerful searchers Elrond could send out- plus she knew all the concealments and protections Elrond had set around Rivendell.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

I assume for the same reason as in the book- as Glorfindel says, he sends out those few who can ride openly against the Black Riders- and since Tolkien says "In all such things not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal... there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."

That's from Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, which also states: 'For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need.' And part of the quote you gave above leaves off the beginning of a sentence which I think is notable here:

'Indeed in dire straights or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed...'

So to my mind the information is that Elven women are stronger that mortals might think (with mortals comparing the strength of Men to Women), and thus could fight well, say, when a realm was being invaded and they had no choice.

Yet Elrond should have had plenty of warriors to send out before risking his daughter alone here. Incidentally, just as an aside, according to Tolkien Arwen was not an Elf, not one of the nissi technically, but one of the half-elven who had abandoned her Elvish rights -- see Letters.

Arwen is a princess of one of the most distinguished houses of the Eldar, granddaughter of Celeborn and Galadriel on her mother's side, and of Earendil and Elwing on her father's side; by Tolkien's own words she'd be nearly as good as her brothers; she would by any measure be one of the most powerful searchers Elrond could send out- plus she knew all the concealments and protections Elrond had set around Rivendell.

I must disagree that one can say she was 'one of the most powerful searchers Elrond could send out' (another interesting aside: in a late text Tolkien actually says that Glorfindel was seemingly the most powerful).

We never read of Arwen riding with her brothers slaying orcs or out scouting, and after Arwen and Aragorn plighted their troth, and Aragorn 'went forth again to danger and toil' we also read that 'Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought' (Appendix A)


Again, Jackson's stated 'problem' concerned introductions in any event, and this could have been solved with Legolas -- but speaking of martial prowess, the filmmakers went overboard (in my opinion) with respect to inventing 'impossible' battle stunts for Legolas.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Galin

Incidentally, just as an aside, according to Tolkien Arwen was not an Elf, not one of the nissi technically, but one of the half-elven who had abandoned her Elvish rights -- see Letters.

Had she abandoned those rights already - or would she abandon them if/when she was allowed to marry her Mortal betrothed?

If Aragorn had failed (but - unlikely - survived), and Elrond had said that she was not allowed to cast away her Elven life on someone who was not king of Arnor and Gondor - would she then just have broken off the engagement and gone with Elrond to the West?

[Galin]

Well my point was that she was technically not an Elf at any time, but one of the half-even, though what that might mean with respect to the pure-blooded nissi and strength relative to elven men, I don't know.

In my opinion Laws And Customs Among The Eldar has revealed that there was '... less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-woman that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.' And as such the nissi could fight valiantly if pressed in dire straights and desperate defence.

It was Elven-men who bore arms however. I think it's reasonable enough to think that they trained in Middle-earth and also became battle hardened (or battle-trained along with regular training). Would Elven-women wilt at the prospect of picking up heavy battle gear and actually engaging in combat if the enemy had broken through the defences and lives were at stake?

No, in part because they knew they were strong enough, and so could fight valiantly at least.


To my mind this is still a long way from Arwen Halfelven the valkyrie (as I have seen in at least one other essay attempting to defend Jackson here), or 'one of the most powerful searchers Elrond could send out', and I see no real textual support yet for Elrond's daughter being skilled in the art of battle or being a warrior of note.

[Valandil]

For us book-geeks, it makes no sense to have Arwen come in the place of Glorfindel, but cinematically, it made a lot of sense.

* As was noted - it's better in a movie to have this done by a more principal character than by someone who just appears in this role - and then disappears. Otherwise movie-goers (those not familiar with the books) are just like - "why didn't they send that Glorfindel on the Ring Quest? He coulda whupped up on them Nazgul some more!")
* Also - while the subdued history of Arwen & Aragorn is acceptable in the books - especially since we can research it some more in the ROTK appendices - it is good to give her - and their romance - a bit more screen-time. Otherwise, non-readers cannot imagine why Aragorn doesn't go for that Eowyn-chick.
* Legolas? I don't think so. We book-geeks might get just as upset about that as about Arwen - since in the book it isn't him either. Arwen is at least an Elf of Rivendell. This probably went along with PJ's earlier intention of making Arwen an Elf Warrior (an idea which I'm thankful was dropped) - and this is probably the only remnant.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

For us book-geeks, it makes no sense to have Arwen come in the place of Glorfindel, but cinematically, it made a lot of sense.

But still we are going from a general cinematic concern to a specific choice -- a choice that was simply not the only one to resolve that concern however.

* Also - while the subdued history of Arwen & Aragorn is acceptable in the books - especially since we can research it some more in the ROTK appendices - it is good to give her - and their romance - a bit more screen-time. Otherwise, non-readers cannot imagine why Aragorn doesn't go for that Eowyn-chick.

Again, which could have been done in other ways in any case.

* Legolas? I don't think so. We book-geeks might get just as upset about that as about Arwen - since in the book it isn't him either. Arwen is at least an Elf of Rivendell. This probably went along with PJ's earlier intention of making Arwen an Elf Warrior (an idea which I'm thankful was dropped) - and this is probably the only remnant.

For me, Arwen being at least an Elf of Rivendell isn't very compelling however.

I don't think that Tolkien readers would have been just as upset with Legolas (of course who can 'know' such a thing, but I tend to think Legolas would have been more acceptable) -- and in any case had Legolas been chosen one can only hope (or suspect at least) that the narrative would have been followed more closely, and readers would have been spared the fan fiction of an Elf surprising Aragorn by putting a sword to his neck -- yet another 'groan moment' in my opinion.


I find it hard to believe that Peter Jackson was so concerned about having an Elf from Mirkwood -- which would only really matter in some measure to book readers -- be involved in this search, that he thought Arwen would surely be more acceptable to book readers than Legolas.

And if it was truly just a remnant of a notion later dropped, that might illustrate that he began an idea and didn't follow through with it -- which even some Arwen defenders have criticized Jackson for incidentally -- for being inconsistent with respect to his own inventions.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Galin

I don't think that Tolkien readers would have been just as upset with Legolas (of course who can 'know' such a thing, but I tend to think Legolas would have been more acceptable) -- and in any case had Legolas been chosen one can only hope (or suspect at least) that the narrative would have been followed more closely, and readers would have been spared the fan fiction of an Elf surprising Aragorn by putting a sword to his neck -- yet another 'groan moment' in my opinion.

Even with Arwen replacing Glorfindel, that 'groan moment' was completely unnecessary. *sigh* She could have approached Aragorn and the Hobbits the way Glorfindel did, with Aragorn hearing her at some distance, and met them in a dignified manner.

Strider was now leaning forward, stooped to the ground, with a hand to his ear, and a look of joy on his face.

Rather than caught unawares ...