the definative balrog answer :)

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Grendel
I see you failed to include the paragraph that came immediately before the one you posted:

"It's probably fair to say that there is no incontrovertible evidence for real wings, and that there are at least two strong objections to their existence. Given the current state of the argument, then, the weight of evidence seems to come down pretty heavily on the 'no wings' side of the debate. 'Weight of evidence', though, isn't proof: there's always room for research and reinterpretation."

Of course they don't know for sure, but they clearly favor the 'no wings' position. Your attempt to show their position as neutral or completely undecided is debating in bad faith.

Ummmm no it doesn't. It shows that regardless of their position that they DON'T KNOW. Their position doesn't mean anything, because they end the article by saying they don't know, but nice try...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Grendel
And what he said is that they are basically no greater than man-sized.

I love how you continue to misconstrue the facts. He actually contradicts himself.

In one passage he says "no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it."

And then in another he says "of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it." So for you to definitively say they are no greater than man-sized doesn't make sense.

He also goes on to say this "It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height...but Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm." That passage doesn't sound like he is man-sized there either...

All we are saying, especially myself, is that you cannot say definitively for a fact one way or the other, because there are compelling arguements from both sides. To bring up the Encyclopedia of Arda thing is a moot point, because you can find other arguements for the other side that are just as compelling...

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Or neither. "Tempest" is not a flight-related word. Neither is "arose" in most cases. "Passed over" can be flight-related but is certainly not always so. And Tolkien used the phrase "passed over" many times to discuss non-flying

Huh?

Winged speed is an expression used most often for swift flight with wings. That is a fact you are choosing to ignore.

Someone post a Tolkien passage where a land-bound creature “arises to pass with winged speed over" something.
Until then........................I just can't take this seriously.

later,

[cian]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner: Huh? Winged speed is an expression used most often for swift flight with wings. That is a fact you are choosing to ignore.

Thus can my love excuse the slow offence
Of my dull bearer when from thee I speed:
From where thou art why should I haste me thence?
Till I return, of posting is no need.
O! what excuse will my poor beast then find,
When swift extremity can seem but slow?
Then should I spur, though mounted on the wind,
In winged speed no motion shall I know,
Then can no horse with my desire keep pace;
Therefore desire, of perfect'st love being made,
Shall neigh--no dull flesh--in his fiery race;
But love, for love, thus shall excuse my jade,--
'Since from thee going, he went wilful-slow,
Towards thee I'll run, and give him leave to go.'

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 51

My beautiful! my beautiful! that standest meekly by.
With thy proudly-arched and glossy neck, and dark and fiery eye!
Fret not to roam the desert now with all thy winged speed:
I may not mount on thee again - thou'rt sold, my Arab steed!

Caroline Norton's The Arab's Farewell to his Steed

No princess, veil'd in azure vest,
Snatched him, by Merlin's potent spell,
In groves of golden bliss to dwell;
Where, crown'd with wreaths of misletoe,
Slaughter'd kings in glory go:
But when he fell, with winged speed,
His champions, on a milk-white steed,
From the battle's hurricane,
Bore him to Joseph's towered fane,
In the fair vale of Avalon:

Thomas Warton's The Grave of King Arthur



"The king is on the waves!
The storm he boldly braves.
His ocean-steed,
With winged speed,
O'er the white-flashing surges,
To England's coast he urges;
And there he stays the winter o'er:
More gallant king ne'er trod that shore."

translation of the Saga of Sigurd the Crusader

For examples.

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner: Someone post a Tolkien passage where a land-bound creature “arises to pass with winged speed over" something. Until then ........................ I just can't take this seriously.

Or post a Tolkien passage where it's stated that Balrogs have physical, permanent wings like that of a bat or a bird or similar.

¤

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by cian
Or post a Tolkien passage where Tolkien states that Balrogs have physical, permanent wings like that of a bat or a bird or similar. Use all of HOME, Letters ... any source you know of to date.

The thing is he never gave a real concise definitive description of Balrogs one way or the other...

[cian]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
The thing is he never gave a real concise definitive description of Balrogs one way or the other...

You seem to be saying that you don't know if Balrogs have permanent flesh-type wings or not -- regarding the FOTR quote, one might assume Balrogs have 'vast' bat wings (or similar), based however, on a passage that doesn't necessarily tell us any more than the Moria Balrog had 'wings' because its shadow (at one point) reached out like wings.

'Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness.'~ ROTK

¤

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by cian
You seem to be saying that you don't know if Balrogs have permanent flesh-type wings or not -- so one must assume Balrogs have 'vast' bat wings (or similar) based on a passage that doesn't necessarily tell us any more than the Moria Balrog had 'wings' because its shadow (at one point) reached out like wings.

'Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness.'~ ROTK

¤

No, what I said was, he doesn't describe hardly anything about Balrogs, he even contradicts himself on a number of occassions about it's size and stature...

[cian]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
No, what I said was, he doesn't describe hardly anything about Balrogs, he even contradicts himself on a number of occassions about it's size and stature...

Thus, you don't know whether Balrogs have vast, permanent bat wings. Do you believe they do? if so why? the Moria passage doesn't say they do in any case.

¤

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by cian
Thus, you don't know whether Balrogs have vast, permanent bat wings. Do you believe they do? if so why? the Moria passage doesn't say they do in any case.

¤

I am really in the middle on it, but lean more towards that they did have wings, however I like keeping it open to the chance they didn't. You speak of the Moria passage, but they thing is, it doesn't say they don't have them either, ya know? It does mention them, whether it be through metaphor or simile or what-have-you...

[Dúnedain]

Here is a cool article written by Michael Martinez, who has written extensively on Tolkien's works...

The Lord of the Rings
Do Balrogs have wings? Do Balrogs fly?

No questions seem to incite greater fear in online Tolkien fandom than these two, because the Great Balrog wings debate began innocently enough in late 1997 and has raged ever since, each time someone just discovers a new discussion group, or they work up their courage to ask the question again and again. Why the great fear? Because few people ever give in and change their minds. And those who do change their minds may do so more than once. The Balrog wings debate has led to a great deal of name-calling and casting of slurs. It all becomes very childish too quickly.

And, unfortunately, recent efforts to portray the debate in a "fair" and non-judgmental way have been spectacular failures because the third-parties don't present all the facts. It is difficult to condense a discussion which roars over 2 or 3 weeks before dying down to a concise summary. It is difficult to be sure of which points are proven and which are discarded. The Great Metaphor and Simile debate arose out of the Great Balrog wings debate, and if nothing else provided much evidence that people cannot agree on anything. Many who had stood firmly together on the wings issue fell to bickering over what constituted metaphor and simile, and how they are normally used, and how they should be used, and how J.R.R. Tolkien used them.

This page is concerned only with the original questions. Did Balrogs have wings? Did Balrogs fly? And the answers are...

Yes, Balrogs had wings...from about 1940 onward.

Yes, Balrogs flew...from at least 1940 onward, maybe from 1948 onward, or possibly from 1952 or thereabouts onward.

The Origins of Balrogs
Tolkien used the word "Balrog" to describe a terrifying type of warrior he invented for THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, the first story of which was written in 1916/1917. This was "The Fall of Gondolin". There were hundreds or even thousands of them. In some battle descriptions Tolkien wrote about 1,000 Balrogs riding across the field (they were a cavalry force).

THE BOOK OF LOST TALES was Tolkien's attempt to create a mythology for England, and he abandoned the project in 1925, about the time he decided to create a wholly new mythology which reused the themes and many characters from THE BOOK OF LOST TALES. So this new mythology, which he called the "Silmarillion", was a very primitive version of the collection of stories Christopher published as THE SILMARILLION in 1977, but it wasn't directly related.

The "Silmarillion" mythology retained the Balrogs, and in the 1930s Tolkien rewrote it, producing the fullest version of "Quenta Silmarillion" that he would ever write. Christopher actually used some portions of this text for the book, and that unfortunately has contributed to the confusion many people experience about Balrogs.

A New Balrog Emerges
When Tolkien began work on THE LORD OF THE RINGS he really wanted to get his "Silmarillion" published (now conceived of as THE SILMARILLION, but still only very little in concept like the final book). He had no real inclination to write any more books about hobbits, but as he got rolling on the new hobbit story the idea of marrying the world of the hobbits to the world of the "Silmarillion" appealed to him, and he believed it would eventually help him publish THE SILMARILLION.

So Tolkien began creating what we today know as Middle-earth (it did not exist before then, and Tolkien had only rarely used the name "Middle-earth" in the 1930s, and it does not appear in any published text from before the 1930s). As part of that world he needed a series of perils that Frodo and his companions would encounter, and one of them was set in the ancient mines of Moria, which THE HOBBIT had established was now abandoned and in the possession of Orcs (or had been).

The peril in Moria started out as something other than a Balrog (Tolkien wasn't sure of what it should be at first), and when he decided it SHOULD be a Balrog he became dissatisfied with the way he had portrayed Balrogs in the past. Tolkien had already begun the process of transforming the Balrogs into fallen Maiar but this decision would not be put into written form until 1948. Nonetheless, he changed the physical description of the Balrog in Moria and altered its abilities substantially from those assigned to the Balrogs of earlier (now abandoned) stories.

This Balrog had wings, and was capable of exercising great power, and was nearly invincible. The Balrog detected Gandalf's spell as he tried to block the exit from the Chamber of Mazarbul, and the Balrog itself began a counter-spell, according to Gandalf. So the wizard used a Word of Command to break the down, and the result was a partial cave-in which buried the Chamber of Mazarbul and apparently the Balrog with it.

continued....

[Dúnedain]

...continued

The Balrog survived the cave-in and rejoined its army, which converged with the Company of the Ring in the Second Hall of Khazad-dum by an alternate route. There the Balrog revealed itself fully, and the darkness with which it cloaked itself expanded. The wings were either shielded by the darkness or formed by the Balrog on the spot or else the darkness (or part of the darkness) was reshaped by the Balrog to take on the form of wings (and thus BECAME wings).

Objections to Balrog wings
Here is where many people make their first mistake. They argue that since Tolkien introduces the wings with a simile, saying, "the shadow around it reached out LIKE two vast wings", the wings cannot be real. But the argument is flawed, because Tolkien also introduces the darkness (the "shadow") with a simile as well: "what it was could not be seen: it was LIKE a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe yet greater". If Tolkien's use of the word "like" here means that there were no wings, then it follows that there was no shadow, and if there was no shadow then it could not possibly have "reached out like two vast wings".

So, in order for there to be a shadow there must be wings, because later on Tolkien writes "it stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall." The Company of the Ring clearly saw the wings by this point, and what Tolkien was doing with the two similes (and other parts of the passage) was providing a transition from vagueness to clarity. Nothing more.

Objections to Flying Balrogs
People then ask, "Why didn't the Balrog fly over Gandalf if it could fly?"

The answer is that the author gives no indication that the Balrog wanted to do anything other than attack Gandalf. It never once tries to go after Frodo and the Ring. Many people assume it wanted the Ring, but there is no basis for making such an assumption. The closest indication we have that anything other than Sauron and Saruman might have been actively pursuing the Ring is when the Watcher in the Water grabs Frodo. But there is no obvious connection between the Watcher and the Balrog.

And if the Balrog COULD have flown with those big cavern-spanning wings, how was it to do so inside the Second Hall of Khazad-dum anyway? There were two rows of HUGE carven pillars, reaching from floor to ceiling, marching down the center of the hall. The Balrog could not have flown toward the Company of the Ring with those wings fully extended.

Then people ask, "Well, why didn't it try to save itself when it fell into the chasm?"

The answer here begins with another question: "Why should we assume it would want to save itself?" The Balrog had just crawled out from under tons of rock which would have killed Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, and all the rest of the Company. What, exactly, did it have to fear? Why should it have tried to "save" itself when the author has just shown the reader that Balrogs don't die so easily?

Furthermore, the first thing the Balrog does is lash out at Gandalf and drag him downward. Clearly its foremost thought is to continue the attack on Gandalf. Even if there were room in the chasm for the Balrog to fly out, why should it drag Gandalf down with it if it intends to get out of the chasm anyway? Why not just "save" itself and let him fall with the bridge? Because Tolkien didn't write it that way. Obviously he envisioned the Balrog as an active creature, not a reactive one.

Gandalf's description of the battle with the Balrog also makes it clear that they fought all the way down, and that they fell for a long time. So the Balrog was at the very least encumbered with Gandalf and more likely was actively trying to burn him to death (Gandalf does say he was burned).

And then we have to turn to the question of why it took so long for them to reach the water. Some people have argued that it was a LONG way down. Maybe, but if Tolkien knew anything about the rate of falling bodies (and he probably did), then he would understand that Gandalf's words wouldn't make any sense if the wizard and the Balrog really fell at a normal speed.

So it seems apparent that their rate of descent was slowed, probably by the Balrog, but clearly these were both beings of great power who, if they wished to, could move through the universe at will. Their existence and ability to affect the universe did not depend on their physical bodies (although it has been noted that late in his life Tolkien decided many of the fallen Maiar probably became trapped in their bodies due to engaging in biological activities).

continued...

[Dúnedain]

...continued

Hence, there is little reason to ask why the Balrog didn't fly out of the chasm. It obviously had other things on its mind, and the battle Gandalf describes is not the kind of battle that any normal flesh-and-blood creature would be expected to survive (and he himself was not a normal flesh-and-blood creature). The battle lasted for 11 days, and it culminated with the clash of powers on the mountaintop.

Could a Flying Balrog Save Itself?
There one more objection is raised: "Why didn't the Balrog save itself when it fell from the mountainside?" The answer is that dead and dying Balrogs, like dead and dying dragons, don't fly. When Earendil cast Ancalagon from the sky the dragon was finished and it smote Thangorodrim in its ruin just as the Balrog of Moria smote the mountainside in ITS ruin. And when Bard's arrow pierced Smaug's breast, the great dragon fell from the sky and hit the ruins of Laketown in HIS ruin.

Gandalf threw down his enemy. That expression is one of Tolkien's pseudo-archaisms, and clearly refers to Gandalf's vanquishing the Balrog. It was either too physically exhausted after having been whacked on with an Elvish sword and blasted with lightning bolts for 11 days or it was dead or in the process of dying when it took that fall off the cliff. If the Balrog could have acted to save itself at all by that point, it would at least have taken Gandalf with it, if not actually turn the tables on him. How many times during their 11 days together did either Gandalf or the Balrog NEARLY kill his opponent? Tolkien doesn't say. He leaves it to the reader to imagine how terrible the battle must have been. But he makes it clear that Gandalf won because the Balrog could no longer attack him.

But Can Balrogs Really fly?
Then we turn to the question of whether Balrogs really CAN fly. The short answer is that they were Maiar and that Maiar can whatever they please. The long answer is that Tolkien DOES provide one example of flying Balrogs, and that is when they flew over Hithlum to rescue Morgoth from Ungoliant.

Here many people raise objections by dissecting a single sentence and taking specific phrases out of context. "winged speed", they say, can be used as a metaphor. Yes, it can, but there is no indication in the text that Tolkien used it so. "Arose", they say, can refer to the act of flying up into the sky or simply climbing out of an underground abode, and the Balrogs were indeed underground when they heard Morgoth scream. Yes, that is so. But there is no indication in the text that this is what Tolkien meant to imply without also implying flight.

"Passed over" doesn't necessarily mean flight, either, they say. Fingolfin's horse passed over the plain of Anfauglith after the Dagor Bragollach, and the horse obviously was not flying. True, but "passed over" must be given a context to have any meaning.

What J.R.R. Tolkien actually wrote was "swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire." Unfortunately, only part of this text was used by Christopher Tolkien in THE SILMARILLION. What he wrote "and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire."

Why did Christopher change the text? He doesn't say. It may only have been an error of omission. But it's not simply a matter of omission, he changed the verbal phrasing completely from "they passed with winged speed over Hithlum" to "passing over Hithlum".

The key phrase in both versions of the sentence, however, is the metaphor "tempest of fire". A tempest is a storm. Some people have argued that a tempest can simply refer to a disturbance, but Tolkien doesn't use "tempest" that way. He uses it to refer to things coming out of the sky. When Morgoth unleashed the winged dragons on the Host of the Valar at the end of the War of Wrath, they erupted like a "tempest of fire". Clearly the winged dragons were flying and spewing flames.

Tolkien's "tempest of fire" in Lammoth dates from the 1950s, AFTER Tolkien had reached the conclusion that Balrogs were winged fallen Maiar. Furthermore, it works with "swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum" to denote a passage through the sky. There were Elves in Hithlum at the time (Sindar) who noted this passage (that is how Tolkien justifies his histories -- either someone witnesses it or infers it). Hithlum itself was not burned, nor suffered any kind of damage from flame and smoke. Tolkien doesn't say the flaming Balrogs ran through Hithlum, and they in their fiery state could not have ridden through it as in the older stories.

continued...

[Dúnedain]

...continued

Some people nonetheless argue that these are only words, and that it can be shown they mean something other than flight. However, when I have asked people in many forums to try, no one has succeeded. You must use all four parts of the sentence. You cannot drop any part. It is simply not possible to rewrite the sentence so as to show something other than flight. Hence, there is no ambiguity in the passage concerning the Balrogs' mode of travel.

Glaurung's Train of Balrogs
But one last objection is raised, and that is that in describing the Dagor Bragollach, THE SILMARILLION says "in the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined."

One must ask where this sentence comes from, and the answer is surprising to many. It doesn't come from J.R.R. Tolkien. What JRRT actually wrote, in the last full "Quenta Silmarillion" from the 1930s, was "in the front of that fire came Glomund the golden, the father of dragons, and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Gnomes had never before seen or imagined."

These Balrogs were not the flaming, cloaked-in-shadow, wing-bearing, flying Balrogs of the 1940s and 1950s. In the same text, when Tolkien described the fight between Morgoth and Ungoliant, all he wrote was "so great had Ungoliante become that she enmeshed Morgoth in her choking nets, and his awful cry echoed through the shuddering world. To his aid there came the Balrogs that lived yet in the deepest places of his ancient fortress, Utumno in the North. With their whips of flame the Balrogs smote the webs asunder...."

No mention of passing over Hithlum, swiftly arising, or arriving as a tempest of fire here. These were not fiery flying Balrogs. These are still the mounted Balrogs of yesteryear. In the same "Quenta Silmarillion" text, when describing the Nirnaeth, Tolkien wrote "But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth let loose his last strength, and hell was emptied. There came wolves and serpents, and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glomund the Father of Dragons." The number of 1,000 Balrogs survived into the 1950s, but Tolkien soon made a note to himself in "Annals of Aman" that there should not be more than 7 at most.

In describing the outcome of the War of Wrath in this "Quenta Silmarillion", Tolkien wrote "the Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth." This is the language that Christopher incorporated into the published SILMARILLION, because his father never finished rewriting "Quenta Silmarillion". Christopher adopted as much material as he could from "Annals of Aman" and "Grey Annals", but the latter material covered the history of the Eldar in Middle-earth after the return of the Noldor and it was unsuitable for use in the published text.

The entry in "Grey Annals" which describes the Dagor Bragollach is radically different from the 1930s description which Christopher used, reading, in part, "Rivers of fire ran down from Thangorodrim, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons, came forth in his full might. The green plains of Ardgalen were burned up and became a drear desert without growing thing; and thereafter were called ANFAUGLITH, the Gasping Dust."

continued...

[Dúnedain]

...continued

Gone is all mention of Balrogs in the dragon's train.

The Final Word on Balrogs
Tolkien never again wrote a story about Balrogs. What we find in THE SILMARILLION, therefore, is virtually useless information, amalgamated from older, pre-LOTR (and thus incompatible) sources. And Tolkien fans often forget Christopher's admonishment in the foreword to THE SILMARILLION: "A complete consistency (either within the compass of THE SILMARILLION itself or between THE SILMARILLION and other published writings of my father's) is not to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all, at heavy and needless cost."

So, to learn about the nature and abilities of the Balrog of Moria one must dissect the various texts of THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH, and the stories from THE BOOK OF LOST TALES and other pre-LOTR materials cannot be used to analyze the Balrog of Moria. Many people try to do so, but because Tolkien substantially changed the Balrogs while writing "Ainulindale" and THE LORD OF THE RINGS, the Balrogs of THE BOOK OF LOST TALES and the early "Quenta Silmarillion" are completely different creatures.

In the final analysis, one must accept that the Balrog of Moria had wings because J.R.R. Tolkien said it had wings, and that the Balrogs flew to Lammoth because the sentence cannot mean anything else. If one chooses not to accept these facts, then one is at variance with J.R.R. Tolkien, and there is nothing which can be said or done to counter an argument that refuses to accept the plain and simple facts.

I guess this could be used as the counter to the Encyclopedia of Arda article, but still, either way, there are a lot of points to be made on both sides

[cian]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I am really in the middle on it, but lean more towards that they did have wings, however I like keeping it open to the chance they didn't. You speak of the Moria passage, but they thing is, it doesn't say they don't have them either, ya know? It does mention them, whether it be through metaphor or simile or what-have-you...

That Tolkien doesn't say a thing doesn't have wings doesn't mean a thing does

The Moria passage does not mention physical permanent wings, or describe them specifically -- the word 'wings' appears in a description there rather. Consider quotes from Tal-Elmar

'... for the Sea-men spread great cloths like wings to catch the airs, and bind them to tall poles like trees of the forest.' ~ JRRT

Later on in the passage:

'... and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings.' ~JRRT

Still later:

'The foul wings of the Sea-men have not been seen in these waters for many a year; ...' ~JRRT

¤

[cian]

I've read Michael's essay

Incidentally Michael has elsewhere stated that the wings could be made of 'Shadow-stuff'.

And the sentence in the Lammoth passage can easily refer to non flying creatures. For example horses can 'arise' from somewhere, and pass over a land (with winged speed) and arrive somewhere like a tempest.

¤

[Dúnedain]

Check this out, this is from The Fellowship of the Ring:

The Fellowship of the Ring; The Great River p. 378:

'Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from across the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down, as if to hide.

Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore. The sky was clean again. There was a tumult of many voices far away, cursing and wailing in the darkness, and then silence. Neither shaft nor cry came again from the east that night.


After a while Aragorn led the boats back upstream. They felt their way along the water's edge for some distance, until they found a small shallow bay. A few low trees grew there close to the water, and behind them rose a steep rocky bank. Here the Company decided to stay and await the dawn: it was useless to attempt to move further by night. They made no camp and lit no fire, but lay huddled in the boats, moored close together.

'Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas!' said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. 'That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!'

'But who can say what it hit?' said Legolas.

'I cannot,' said Gimli. 'But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria - the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.

'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was -----' Then he paused and fell silent.

You can be the judge of this passage yourself

[cian]

I note Frodo is talking about feel there, it was 'colder' ... and in any case, if the Balrog had a shadow, or Unlight about it, that reached out like vast wings at one point -- it would arguaby look like a creature with vast wings.

I 'picture' a creature with vast 'wings' during the confrontation in Moria. Not permanent vast bat or bird wings though -- I'll wait to see if Tolkien ever describes 'wings' in that sense

¤

[cian]

Incidentally, for folks quoting the Michael Martinez article, please also note Michael's comments regarding what the 'wings' were possibly made of -- for full context to any existing commentary I suggest searching google 'shadow stuff' on the Tolkien newsgroups.

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[squinteyedsoutherner]

None of the examples that were cut and pasted from Conrad Dunkerson’s essay the Truth about Balrogs Vol.6 are comparable to the way Tolkien used the phrase winged speed. That essay is a shinning example of the perils of language deconstruction, and the fact that one can kick up enough dust with their feet so that they can no longer see a hand in front of their face. Cian both you and Grendel should give the source when you cut and paste from someone else’s work too (if you did and I missed it, my apologies).

Michael’s analysis of the bridge passage in Lord of the Rings and the “evolution” of the Balrog in Tolkien’s mythology sholud be the final word on this, somehow I have a feeling it won't be.

Sign me up for wings made of shadow.