Gildor Inglorion

[Curufin]

Continuing this from a thread where we got rather off topic...

Gordis says: Gildor is actually the reason why I sort of dislike all Elves. I hated Gildor on my first LOTR reading and still dislike him (though now I understand his reasons better). After reading Silm, I have mellowed towards Elves in general, but there are some LOTR ones that I still can't stand.

Why? I think the moment they met Gildor was the point that I started becoming interested in LotR. He's always held a special place in my heart.

[Earniel]

There are worse Elves than Gildor, I think. Although his counsel wasn't exactly very helpful at times, the guy meant well.

[Curufin]

See, I was madly in love with him for a long time. I really like the guy. He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be.

[Gordis]

Gildor and his company of HIGH ELVES (who live and have great power in both the Seen and the Unseen Words, who can openly fight nazgul) could have escorted the hobbits to Rivendell safely. It is like a whole company of Glorfindels. Gildor knew it, but still he sent the hobbits on their way alone and returned to his singing under the stars (quite an important business as compared to lowly mortal matters).

What was it he said?

The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned in the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures on earth.

Yea, right. And with that Gildor let 3 frightened little hobbits make their way to Rivendell alone - pursued by the Nazgul.
And what would have happened if Glorfindel the Elf shared this attitude?

Now compare it with the words of Barliman, the funny, fat, forgetful innkeeper:

They come from Mordor,' said Strider in a low voice. 'From Mordor, Barliman, if that means anything to you.'
'Save us!' cried Mr. Butterbur turning pale; the name evidently was known to him. 'That is the worst news that has come to Bree in my time.' 'It is,' said Frodo. 'Are you still willing to help me?' 'I am,' said Mr. Butterbur. 'More than ever. Though I don't know what the likes of me can do against, against———' he faltered.
'Against the Shadow in the East,' said Strider quietly. 'Not much, Barliman, but every little helps.

Of course, unlike Butterbur, Gildor had a fair face and golden hair and was so “shiny” and mysterious all through – so some readers are willing to pardon him anything and love him nonetheless.

[Earniel]

The question remains if Butterbur's would have still been that helpfull if it had meant going along and protect the Hobbits, instead of just getting them a pack-horse... I'm guessing not.

The Hobbits didn't look that frightened either at the time with the meeting with Gildor, this was early enough in the adventure. At the time the Hobbits didn't need protection yet, and stealth might have gotten them further instead of being escorted by a whole squard of singing Elves.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The question remains if Butterbur's would have still been that helpfull if it had meant going along and protect the Hobbits, instead of just getting them a pack-horse... I'm guessing not.

That was not the point I was making. Sure, Butterbur wouldn't have been of much help on the road, but he was willing to help to the best of his powers. Gildor was not.

Getting them a pack horse and especially keeping his mouth shut (the latter must have been hard) was all Barley was realistically capable of. And it might have turned to be quite dangerous - don't forget that the very angry Witch King and 6 nazgul passed through Bree the very next night, abandoning all secrecy, throwing down the gates. If the WK only stopped for a moment to search the Pony, it would have turned quite ill for Barley.

The Hobbits didn't look that frightened either at the time with the meeting with Gildor, this was early enough in the adventure. At the time the Hobbits didn't need protection yet, and stealth might have gotten them further instead of being escorted by a whole squard of singing Elves.

Come on, the fact that the hobbits were not too frightened only meant that they were too ignorant to be frightened enough. Thus, ignorant and naive, they needed protection even more.
A whole squard of singing HIGH Elves would have been a perfect protection from the nazgul. And Gildor did send a messenger to Rivendell to warn Elrond, who arrived nine days before the hobbits. Now why couldn't Gildor et al go with them?

'Then Gandalf has reached Rivendell?' cried Frodo joyfully.
'No. He had not when I departed; but that was nine days ago,' answered Glorfindel. 'Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south.-Flight to the Ford

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

That was not the point I was making. Sure, Butterbur wouldn't have been of much help on the road, but he was willing to help to the best of his powers. Gildor was not.

And who says Gildor did not do what he thought best? What if giving the Hobbits a Elven squad of protectors did more bad than good? The nazgul would know something was up for sure then, and the group'd be easier to track. Besides, what if Gildor feared the influence of the Ring? He and his people were remants of the Noldor, who do not have the best of track records on controling their ambition.

Come on, the fact that the hobbits were not too frightened only meant that they were too ignorant to be frightened enough. Thus, ignorant and naive, they needed protection even more.

Hmm, they seemed to have been smart enough to understand that running into the black riders was not in their best interest. I think they did far better without Elves on their journey to the Prancing Pony than with them.

[Jon S.]

>> The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned in the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures on earth.

If nothing else, this expression of isolationism is certainly common in "regular earth," too.

Though I do agree with Earniel as well: it is perilous to judge on the basis of snippets of 3rd-hand conversations. This doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, only that we proceed humbly.

[Curufin]

And yet I can't stand Túrin. More of a Ñoldor person, myself.

But I understand your reasoning!

As for Gildor, I see in him the culmination of everything that has befallen the Ñoldor - he's very reluctant to get involved in anything that is going to cause any more grief, and he really just wants to be left alone and allowed to go into the West. But that said, he does have a bit of good and nobility left within him - the reason he even goes so far as to give the Hobbits advice (when he really doesn't want to take them among them).

[Jon S.]

FWIW, Gordis's arguments regarding Gildor are beginning to persuade me. Based on what we can know of the situation, what the protaganists actually said, who likely knew what, and how regular folks (yes, I'm projecting here!) would likely act were an analogous situation to arise in our lives, while it was cool that Gildor helped as much as he did, seems to me it was a huge risk bordering on if not equaling recklessness to not have done more under the circumstances.

If it had been me meeting up with the hobbits in the woods, knowing what Gildor knew, I'd like to think I would have asked a few more questions and offered a bit more aid.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

FWIW, Gordis's arguments regarding Gildor are beginning to persuade me. Based on what we can know of the situation, what the protaganists actually said, who likely knew what, and how regular folks (yes, I'm projecting here!) would likely act were an analogous situation to arise in our lives, while it was cool that Gildor helped as much as he did, seems to me it was a huge risk bordering on if not equaling recklessness to not have done more under the circumstances.

Gildor didn't know his circumstances. And Gildor wasn't 'regular folk.' He was a fading remnant of a waning people who saw very little connection left to Middle-earth, and had absolutely no interest in hobbits. Look at it this way:if you were walking around the forest towards an important destination (even if you could take your time to get there), and you saw several ants scampering in the other direction, followed by several bees, would you go out of your way to go rescue those ants when it means you could get stung? Or, another example, if you were in the forest and saw several deer running in one direction, followed by several wolves, would you go out of your way to save the deer, when it meant you could get eaten? I really doubt it. And that's how Gildor saw the Hobbits. It wasn't his place to interfere, nor was it something he really cared about. He helped them out as he could, and then moved on. To turn the question around, what on earth was in it for him to join in the quest?

If it had been me meeting up with the hobbits in the woods, knowing what Gildor knew, I'd like to think I would have asked a few more questions and offered a bit more aid.

And what did Gildor know that was so important? There were some hobbits being followed by Nazgúl. Something important, to them at least. But not so much to Elves who were planning to leave soon (in Elvish terms, anyway).

[Coffeehouse]

In the end, I don't think this point has been mentioned in the debate, we should not look at what Gildor and his company of elves thought they could do, or ought to have done, but at what Gandalf intended.

My reasoning why Gildor and the elves were right to give the hobbits shelter, food and some advice and not "transport" the hobbits all the way to Rivendell, was that Gandalf obviously had not intended them to do the latter.

If Gildor and the elves were meant to help, the wizard must surely contacted Rivendell, or any wandering elves in the Shire area, to ask of them to help the hobbits. But he didn't He meant to let Frodo & his companions to go it alone to Bree, without being assisted, mile by mile, along the way.
Gandalf had a purpose, and I would believe it was a blend of wanting the ring to remain obscure, "unimportant" in a way, along its journey to Rivendell. He also wanted hobbits to take it along as they seemed near-impossible to lure into using the ring actively. Thus safest way of keeping it inactive was with Frodo.
Yet Gandalf did not expect Frodo to go it alone. He knew there'd be elves in the area, he knew there'd be Tom Bombadil, he knew there'd be Strider, etc. And he put faith into the hobbits, because he obviously he knew what they were capable of pulling off through the separate journey of Bilbo during the "The Hobbit".

In the end therefore, Gildor should not be held to blame for not doing anything more. I think he did just what he needed to.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Gildor didn't know his circumstances. And Gildor wasn't 'regular folk.' He was a fading remnant of a waning people who saw very little connection left to Middle-earth, and had absolutely no interest in hobbits. [...] And that's how Gildor saw the Hobbits. It wasn't his place to interfere, nor was it something he really cared about. He helped them out as he could, and then moved on. To turn the question around, what on earth was in it for him to join in the quest?
And what did Gildor know that was so important? There were some hobbits being followed by Nazgúl. Something important, to them at least. But not so much to Elves who were planning to leave soon (in Elvish terms, anyway).

As for Gildor as the epitomy of all that is good about elves, I don't see it that way at all.
What you describe above may be understandable, but it's a very poor showing in qualities. There are no perfect people, but only perfect intentions, and that is something that stands as a general weakness among many of the glorified elves of Noldor.
The lack of interest by some elves in the doings of other creatures is perhaps something that cannot be considered evil, or wrong, but it's certainly not good. It's not respectable, and it breeds apathy. The elves have long lives, great love of nature, a good eye for beauty, but sometimes for all the wisdom they seem to possess they also display a troubling lack of insight into other creature's cultures, an ignorant understanding of the complexity of other races. There's nothing wrong about it, but it certainly isn't respectable either.
And if someone deserves to be called noble they need to show the willingness and wisdom to go that extra mile even if no one requires them to. For all their lifetime, elves have as much to learn about living by Men, as Men have to learn about elvish deeds.
But that's my take on it

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If the third age Noldor viewed Men on par with ants and deer, they had fallen much farther than even I thought.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

If the third age Noldor viewed Men on par with ants and deer, they had fallen much farther than even I thought.

I second that. Really Curufin, your last arguments present Gildor even in a worse light than I have implied.

Originally Posted by Curufin

And what did Gildor know that was so important? There were some hobbits being followed by Nazgúl. Something important, to them at least. But not so much to Elves who were planning to leave soon (in Elvish terms, anyway).

And the hobbits never ask for their help either, now do they? And Gildor doesn't know what he's up to, either, or why he's running. He certainly has guesses, but he doesn' t know for sure. I think he does what he can, in the circumstances. It's not like Frodo comes up to him and says 'Hey, Gildor, you know, you're a Calaquendi Ñoldo, and you could really help us out, since we're trying to take this Ring of Power out of the Shire and the Nazgúl are after us.' No, Frodo tells them that they're trying to get out of the Shire in secret. Now how is Torch-boy going to help with that?

Look, Curufin, some hobbits being hunted by nazgul is not an everyday occasion - NOT like deer being followed by wolves. They are not in the same food-chain, so to speak. It is like having wolves hunting bugs -an occasion worth investigating. And Gildor did figure it out - all on his own:

‘I do not know for what reason the Enemy is pursuing you,’ answered Gildor; ‘but I perceive that he is - strange indeed though that seems to me. And I warn you that peril is now both before you and behind you, and upon either side.’

We know he had guessed about the "heavy burden" that the hobbits were carrying. Maybe he didn't know WHAT it was - but he never asked. It is as simple as that - he could simply ASK Frodo and get the answer. But he was afraid to ask, afraid to be committed, though he understood the hobbit's peril much better than the hobbits themselves did. It was much more natural for Gildor to offer help than for Frodo to ask for it. The hobbits had NO idea what the Nazgul were. They did not know there were NINE of them, not 1-2. They had no idea of the powers of Calaquendi Noldor. They had no idea about the road to Rivendell. They didn't know Strider waited for them in Bree. They were entirely in the dark. Gildor knew much more and could have learned everything if he but asked.

Frodo told Gildor they had to get out of the Shire - but would that save them? How could Gildor know that Aragorn was waiting for the hobbits in Bree? I think you all agree that, but for Aragorn, the hobbits would have hardly gotten beyond the Forsaken Inn.

I don't believe Gildor didn't have a suspision about the nature of this "burden". He did guess - that's why he didn't ask for more info. Because otherwise, he would have to face it: he was sending the Ruling Ring straight to Sauron's hand, dooming his kingswoman Galadriel (of the house of Finarfin) AND her son-in law Elrond AND her only grandchildren AND the realms of Lorien and Rivendell AND also, (as far as he likely supposed) Cirdan and the Havens - summarily all the Elvish realms in Middle Earth.
If the Ring were taken by Nazgul in late September, the Elves of Lorien and Rivendell likely wouldn't even have time to flee to Valinor, except Gildor himself - who was so close to the Havens.

Originally Posted by Earniel

I think this discussion is a lot on par with the one whether Elrond and Cirdan should have taken the Ring from Isildur on Mount Doom. I remember nearly every mooter said in a previous discussion they would have taken the ring from him. Sorry, but I don't believe that. But hindsight is 20/20.

I never thought it were even possible for Elrond and Cirdan to take the Ring from Isildur without killing him. And killing him would have led to war between Elves and Men. Much more likely is to suppose thast they used another occasion to get rid of Isildur and to put all the blame on the orcs.

Originally Posted by Earniel

We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.

He did have some foresight - or was it an educated guess? :

‘Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?’ answered Gildor. ‘Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you!’

Originally Posted by Earniel

I think a lot will disagree with [Sauron being an equal opportunity employer]. Snaga for example, if I'm not mistaken. People under Sauron got to the top by viciously kicking on the ones below them.

Most will disagree, sure, brainwashed as they are by Elvish and Tark propaganda.
Snaga was not at the top of orkish social scale - but still he had his place in Mordor. Could an orc serve Gondor or Rohan if he so wished? - No, he would have been hunted down like an animal. In Mordor an orc, an Easterling and even a Numenorean could have got a nice place, if he earned it.

Originally Posted by Earniel

The Southrons and the Haradrim fought for their own honour to the death, not Sauron IMO.

And why they were honor-bound to fight to death for the loosing side? Because of the oaths they have sworn to Sauron, I think. The Easterlings and the Haradrim hated Gondor - and for good reasons, see the Appendices. Under Sauron they were much better off. He was a competent ruler, if a bit on the tyrannical side , giving them equal rights and introducing new technologies.

Originally Posted by Curufin

you can't tell me that the Nazgúl were perfectly nice and good and noble before the Elves came around and gave them rings to wear. They would have noticed pretty quickly that something was a bit...odd...about those rings.

We don't know how exactly the nazgul got their rings - not from Elves, but from (likely disguised) Sauron. There were 1001 possible ways and pretexts to slip a ring to an unsuspecting Man. And when they understood that something was amiss, it was far too late. The Elves themselves didn't dare to wear their Rings even for an hour while Sauron wielded the One (see Silm). And yea, I think most of them (if not all) used to be perfectly well-meaning and noble - that's why Sauron had to use the Rings on them, not hoping to sway them otherwise. See the quote below, which, when written in the draft in HOME 6, likely referred to the Witch-King:

Gandalf: ‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.’

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Most will disagree, sure, brainwashed as they are by Elvish and Tark propaganda. [...] Under Sauron they were much better off. He was a competent ruler, if a bit on the tyrannical side , giving them equal rights and introducing new technologies.

Oh yes, equal rights... everybody a slave! You really are a nazgul, Gordis. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion at least once before so I'm not going to go into this again.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes, there is something in it. Perhaps the Calaquendi only glow when in battle-mode?

Hmm…yeah, that could explain it.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.

I believe I understand what you are saying Earniel (though this may pertain more to Curufin's argument), but I still strongly disagree. We all regularly walk by or look the other way when someone or something could use our help, and usually the reason for doing so is pure convenience. We each have our own lives to live and there are simply too many situations where we could give our time and effort. There aren't enough hours in the day.

But there are times when we do go out of our way for strangers, and this should have been such an occasion. To me, the reason is quite clear. That reason is the extraordinary magnitude of the situation, something that would be difficult to parallel in the real world. Although Gildor probably didn't fully appreciate the importance of what was happening (but he may have), he had to have a pretty good guess (also, as Gordis pointed out, he conveniently didn't ask too many questions).

Gildor's list of excuses (which, yes, we all look for) is quite thin in my opinion. He apparently had no pressing business (he himself said he was tarrying). He wasn't traveling with children. Yes he could say it wasn't any of his concern and was dangerous. These are reasons people often give not to help others. Accepting that we are all selfish beings, I would say these are typically good reasons. But again, this isn't a typical situation. The well being of every person in Middle Earth (who couldn't run away to Valinor, at least) hinged on Frodo getting to Rivendell and Gildor, if he didn't know it, had to strongly suspect it.

I didn't give the excuse that the Elves' presence would be a disadvantage to Frodo because I will never believe it. That these pitifully underprepared hobbits were better off alone that with a group of Noldorian Elves doesn't at all ring true and it isn't one of the reasons Gildor himself gave (those would be apathy and fear). If Gildor knew that Frodo's burden was the Ring, he had little reason to fear its effect on him and his companions because he couldn't possibly have known about Gollum's story and his was the only case of someone other that a ringholder being twisted by a ring of power at that date.

Even if we accept that the Elves' presence would have compromised the hobbits' stealth (I don't), still that stealth was already failing. And stealth won't feed you on a long road when you get hungry and stealth certainly won't get you to a valley that you don't know how to find.

Frodo never would have made it to Rivendell without further aid. Gandalf knew it, Aragorn openly said it, and Gildor knew it too.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Oh yes, equal rights... everybody a slave!

Slaves normally don't feel honor-bound to fight to death for a lost cause. They would happily turn tail and flee. But we are really digressing from the topic of the noble Gildor Inglorion...

[Curufin]

The point is that this wasn't Gildor's fight, and he didn't see himself as involved in the struggles of men (or hobbits).

[Earniel]

I think this discussion is a lot on par with the one whether Elrond and Cirdan should have taken the Ring from Isildur on Mount Doom. I remember nearly every mooter said in a previous discussion they would have taken the ring from him. Sorry, but I don't believe that. But hindsight is 20/20. We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.

Originally Posted by CAB

Elves too are known for their stealth. In the very chapter where Frodo meets Gildor it is said that Elves can walk more quietly than Hobbits. Also, returning to the torch-like qualities of the Noldor, isn't it odd that the Nazgul tracking Frodo only noticed Gildor and friends' approach just as the hobbits did...when they started singing (not glowing).

Considering the story is never told from the Nazgul point of view, it is difficult to establish for real how they saw the Elves at specific moments. The nazgul tracking Frodo may have been aware of the Elves, but may have been too consumed with sniffing to pay closer attention. Also, sight in the wraith world is a bit confusing, according to Frodo's and Sam's accounts of it. Distances are warped. The nazgul may have been aware of the Elves' presense, but not immediately of their proximity, he may have hoped to go about his business before the Elves arrived.

Although since the nazgul have been in the wraith world for so long, they should have adjusted to the warp better than the hobbits who only popped in an out on occasion. So that probably isn't a workable argument. So I'm more convinced of the nazgul being to focussed on the ringbearer to give much notice to the Elves (glowing or not) presence until he had to.

The message concerning the "great burden" was given to the people of Rivendell, not Frodo. Why be cryptic with them?

Fear of eavesdroppers? The Ring is not a topic that should be discussed carelessly in these times.

Of course things did work out. Frodo was a very lucky guy.

Um, so? I'm not sure how this is an argument. Some characters are lucky, some aren't, a lot of things turned out to be very lucky in LoTR in the end. It's what the story requires.

The reason his decision looked wrong is because it was wrong.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I fear.

Originally Posted by Gordis

No time for it now… However, Morgoth needed people to rule, didn’t he? Sauron surely was benevolent to Men serving him – look at the Mouth. And look how Haradrim and Southrons died for him like heroes. Sauron was an equal opportunity employer – the only one in ME.

I think a lot will disagree with that. Snaga for example, if I'm not mistaken. People under Sauron got to the top by viciously kicking on the ones below them. The Southrons and the Haradrim fought for their own honour to the death, not Sauron IMO.

To answer this question one has to know the number and powers of Gildor’s elves. I have got an impression that they were about a dozen. Am I wrong? If so, maybe all the Nine assembled could attack them, indeed. Now, let us write a fanfic plot, taking into account the data from the Hunt for the Ring.

It might have gone like that, and it might not have gone like that. The possibilities on this point are pretty much endless. But think also of this: if the Elves had been present, no Hobbit would have ended up with a Barrow sword. They'd have avoided the Barrow Downs or had travelled over it during the safe day.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Gildor: "Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?’ answered Gildor. ‘Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you! Because I sure won't!"

Even the Hobbits themselves seemed enamored with Elves. They dropped the last sentence from most copies of the Red Book.

Seriously, though, wonderful arguments on both sides here. While Tolkien surely didn't intend Gildor or any of the isolationist Elves to come across negatively, Gordis makes excellent and logical points that are difficult to deny.