Help with Tengwar for tattoo

[Penguin]

I would like to pay homage to Tolkien via a tattoo. It will be my seventh tattoo and my current idea is a modification of a tattoo idea I've had since I was about 14. But I need help with the tengwar.

I used to write in sindarin tengwar, the placement of the vowels over consonants going from up to down left to right came more natural. However if memory serves me correctly, the Quenya form was older and more "pure" elvish, so I felt that I should incorporate it rather than Sindarin.

My tattoo will be a wrist piece involving the dragon Tolkien designed for the cover of the first release of The Hobbit, which is this:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...v/IMG_0054.jpg

and also will include my name, Elizabeth, in tengwar, for which I have come up with this:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...v/IMG_0053.jpg

is that correct quenya tengwar? Also, do you personally think sindarin or quenya would be better suited? I'm having second thoughts about the quenya choice since I myself wrote in Sindarin.

One last question... was there a color that was attributed to elves or dragons or whatever according to tolkien? I'd like some color but I want something that has meaning.

[Rían]

hmm, you might want to dig up the old Tengwar thread - I'm pretty rusty.

From what I remember, the Elves were very context-particular/sensitive, and felt that Sindarin in ME was more appropriate than Quenya, enough so that they changed their names to a Sindarin form (they felt almost an artistic "clash" using Quenya). But I'm very rusty in this area - I could be wrong. So I would say use the Sindarin form, off the top of my head.

Interesting question re color - the only thing I remember about color was that the Elves liked silver over gold. Anyone else remember anything?

(ps - penguin is our old Sminty Smeagol, btw)

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Penguin

However if memory serves me correctly, the Quenya form was older and more "pure" elvish, so I felt that I should incorporate it rather than Sindarin.

Latin would be a good real-world-equivalent to Quenya, I reckon.

However, Quenya was forbidden in Beleriand as result of Thingol finding out about the Noldorin Kinslaying in Aqualondë, so whether it would still have a pure elvish feel to it, can be debated. Only Noldorin royalty spoke it freely afterwards. Sindarin would be more lingua franca.

It's been ages since I wrote any Tengwar, and I tended to choose between Sindarin and Quenya based on the language I wanted to write in (never learned any Elvish, though). If it has many vowels, Quenya is easier, but since my mothertongue has more consonants, I pretty much always write in Sindarin.

One last question... was there a color that was attributed to elves or dragons or whatever according to tolkien? I'd like some color but I want something that has meaning.

Well, you could, I suppose, look at the flags of people and nations. The Gondorean device is black and silver. Rohan was (I think white and) green. The House of the Golden Flower would have had gold in their device and the House of the Fountains blue and silver.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Latin would be a good real-world-equivalent to Quenya, I reckon.

However, Quenya was forbidden in Beleriand as result of Thingol finding out about the Noldorin Kinslaying in Aqualondë, so whether it would still have a pure elvish feel to it, can be debated. Only Noldorin royalty spoke it freely afterwards. Sindarin would be more lingua franca.

But I definitely have this memory of how speaking Quenya in ME was almost artistically unpleasing - I think I got it from one of the HoME books - do you have any memory of passages like that?

[Earniel]

No, sorry, don't recall anything quite like that at the moment. But then there are a few HoME books still on my reading list. I may simply not have come across it yet.

[Penguin]

ll do it in sindarin then. I have more of a personal tie to it anyway. Do you guys know which is correct?

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...v/IMG_0059.jpg

I've been writing it as option 1. but since it starts with a capitol vowel, does the e get a vowel carrier or anything? Also, since it's elvish, what are some elfy colors? Sindarin elf colors? I was thinking green, woodsy colors but I don't know.

[Galin]

Number one is correct in my opinion -- in post 6, which is different compared to the example in your first post regarding the representation of b, for instance.


Interestingly Tolkien himself once wrote the Sindarin name Luthien by placing the diacritics (vowels) above the preceding tengwar, for example -- despite the usual way noted for the Sindarin language in Appendix F. Anyway I would suggest you choose the way you think looks best with a given example, which I think ties in nicely with how the artistic Elves would choose (although generally speaking, I might also follow the general guide in Appendix F, with respect to languages in which many words end in a vowel, or not).

For myself I would choose the option with no vowel carrier -- thus (your) option 1 in post 6 (which option I have seen on the web at other sites as well). And for example, the Quenya language normally has no b in any case, outside of -mb-, and thus no corresponding tengwa to represent this sound when writing Quenya.

[Galin]

I should note that I'm not sure what all the following colour-words are supposed to mean* exactly, but anyway, to post the reference (edited for brevity):

The 1937 Silmarillion notes of the Vanyar: '...they are the fair folk and the White. The Noldor are the Wise, and the Golden (...) The Teleri (...) the gatherers of Pearl, the Blue Elves (...) The Nandor (...) the Axe-elves, the Green-Elves and the Brown (...) The Sindar (...) the Silvern.'

Sindar means 'Greys' so that would do as well I think.

__________
*for example, John Rateliff, author of The History of the Hobbit thought 'the golden' might (originally, or early on) refer to hair. I would disagree myself, even though he admittedly raises this as a theory anyway.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

a metallic silver look would be cool, although I was hoping for something bright... I see smaug was red and gold. a crimson color with antiqued gold color would be cool.... the dragon could be red and gold and the text silver? or maybe the whole thing could be red and gold. The text will be small so it would probably be hard to get a metallic look.

[Earniel]

Red and yellow lines might be difficult to make out. Unless you outline the dragon in black and fill up with red and yellow.

I don't know whether silver tattoo inkt even exists as I have no experience with the actual inkting of tattoos, only with designing them. But I suppose certain greys can mimic silver well enough. If you go with 'silver' letters you can always say you have an ithildin tattoo.

[Penguin]

Okay guys, I have an appointment to get the tattoo on Wednesday. I am getting red and gold in the dragon and a red and gold glow from the tengwar. So stoked! I have been waiting to get this tattoo for like 9 years

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I got it done today. Here is the product:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...tolkientat.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ientattoo3.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ientattoo2.jpg

Although I went to a great artist who was very careful, the dragon did come out a little slanted. But I will love it once I get over this (I am a perfectionist, which is awful when it comes to tattoos). He told me to wear it without color for a while and see if I still want the red and gold added in, he said I might like it better like this and he wouldn't want to put the color in and have me regret it later. He charged me a great price, about half of what he would normally charge, because I have been going in the shop since it opened and I spread good word about them.

[Earniel]

Looking good.

I have to say, it looks good enough without colour. Very considerate of the artist to suggest to wait and see if you want colour as well.

[Galin]

I'm not a great fan of tattoos in general but I like this one. The choice of Tolkien's own dragon is nice (and I always liked this little illustration), plus a simple name in the Elvish characters.

Well done. And I don't think it needs colour either. I say leave a success as it is (just my opinion).

Back to something earlier...

Rian wrote: From what I remember, the Elves were very context-particular/sensitive, and felt that Sindarin in ME was more appropriate than Quenya, enough so that they changed their names to a Sindarin form (they felt almost an artistic "clash" using Quenya).

I think it was more about the Exiled Noldor learning Sindarin in Middle-earth -- they began to render their Quenya names into Grey-elven as '... they felt it absurd and distasteful to call living persons who spoke Sindarin in daily life by names in quite a different linguistic mode' JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor

In other words, if Sindarin is going to become the daily tongue, then we can fit our Quenya names to Sindarin form as well. I assume they still used the Quenya forms when speaking Quenya, at this time anyway.

And the reason that Sindarin won out appears more to do with the Noldor learning Sindarin more quickly: only twenty years after the coming of the Noldor to Middle-earth 'the tongue of the Grey-elves was most spoken even by the Noldor, for they learned swiftly the speech of Beleriand, whereas the Sindar were slow to master the tongue of Valinor'

And then Thingol's edict helped matters. Quenya still survived in areas of course, but Sindarin spread, also moving east with its speakers after the fall of Beleriand.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

The main reason I chose sindarin is because I used to write in sindarin tengwar. I could write fluently in english in the tengwar and taught it to some of my friends and we would pass notes in sindarin tengwar so the teachers couldn't read them. So it also has the most personal meaning to me. Whether I get color or not, I would like the name stylized a little more, so it looks like calligraphy or something. I am still considering color because right now it almost looks like I drew on myself with a sharpie.

[Galin]

I guess I'm getting confused with the seeming term 'Sindarin tengwar'. There is no one way to write in Sindarin using the tengwar of Feanor, and if one is writing in English I would say that one is writing in a mode adapted for English, or an English Mode rather.


Anyway, concerning the name Elizabeth, your last post seems to suggest that you want a different, 'fancier' style. The style seen on the One Ring seems quite popular, as it has a 'flowing' look to it. Or check out some of the work here, in the calligraphy section (the second link is on the left)...

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm


Again, obviously it's up to you. I like the simplicity of your tattoo. I've seen some very angular styles that look nice as well; and although Tolkien's Worm has a curve to him, one need not necessarily go with a 'curvy looking' style in my opinion.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

Well I used a font that had a calligraphy look to it but he simplified it because he said the text is so small it would be a bad idea to do too much detail on it (small things and little details don't work well with tattoos). I notice though on the z symbol it looks a little more stylized so I am going to ask him to do something similar on the other letters as well.

By sindarin tengwar I mean the vowels are above the next consonant, it's my understanding that in quenya tengwar the vowels are above the preceding consonant if I remember correctly? And that Quenya is read down to up, while Sindarin is read up to down. I have like 20 books by or about Tolkien, but I haven't read any Tolkien in about 9 years so I am foggy on the facts. I wanted the tattoo because for a period of my life I was so heavily into the Tolkien world and still admire him.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Sminty_Smeagol

By sindarin tengwar I mean the vowels are above the next consonant, it's my understanding that in quenya tengwar the vowels are above the preceding consonant if I remember correctly?

Ok it's just that the context was you writing in English to a friend, so that's really choosing the placement of the vowels for an English Mode as they might be chosen when writing Sindarin (if using tehtar). Tolkien notes: 'The vowels were in many modes represented by tehtar, usually set above a consonantal letter. In languages such as Quenya, in which most words ended in a vowel, the tehta was placed above the preceding consonant, in those such as Sindarin, in which most words ended in a consonant, it was placed above the following consonant.'

So while that much is correct enough, when writing English it seemed a bit odd to me to call this Sindarin tengwar, especially since one can employ the Mode of Beleriand for instance, which can be used to write Sindarin using (mostly) full letters, including the vowels (see the Moria Gate inscription).

In any case Elizabeth is not Sindarin of course. Pedantic of me I know, especially as you made your decision for personal reasons...

... but it gives me something to post

[Sminty_Smeagol]

Originally Posted by Galin

when writing English it seemed a bit odd to me to call this Sindarin tengwar

It's not odd when you consider the fact that when I was writing in english using the tengwar I had never heard of anyone writing in english using it before, and I was just following the vowel placement according to sindarin methods because it felt more natural to read. I thought at the time that the only difference between Quenya tengwar and Sindarin tengwar was the placement of the vowels, so when I followed that vowel placement I considering it using the sindarin method of tengwar.

It's also not odd when you consider the fact that all of this took place 9 years ago when I was 14 years old, and not since. :P I've forgotten most of the tengwar.