Aragorn and "Tar-" King Name

[alhaQQ]

Hello All,

A bit of speculation--since I have not seen it directly mentioned in any of JRRT's writings--or EofA, or any other Tolkien resource--I wonder if Aragorn would use the "Tar-" 'king name' since he was the only known Dunedain with blood ties directly back to the Numenorean Kings (through the Lords of Anadune). (Whether he really is the closest direct decent can only really be challanged by the Numenoreans who emigrated to Umbar before the fall--which is another story/thread.)

Since Aragorn was surnamed "Elessar" by Galadriel, etc. and that Elessar is Quenya, I wonder if he might have considered or used a king name like Elros took: Aragorn Tar-Elessar, since he has been called "King Elessar" in places and "Aragorn Elessar Telcontar", and so on. This would definitely "help" against any "grumbling" (under their breath) Gondorian Nobles, if there were any, to tie him to the Ancient High-Kingship, not only of Elendil, but all the way back to Elros. (It may have the effect of pissing off the Numenorean decendents of those in Umbar--those who came before the fall and--possibily--to those of Castamir's supporters decendents.)

Since he ruled (and died) in the fashion of a Numenorean Monrch, I wouldn't think that this would be a real stretch--except, maybe "Tar-Elessar" doesn't translate in to Westron very well.

Any thoughts?

[Earniel]

I think there wouldn't have been much grumbling among the nobles. After all, it was Elendil and his sons that founded Arnor and Gondor, not the Númenorean kings, even though Elendil was related to them. So it was pretty much, IMO, descent from Elendil that would have mattered most. (And a descent from Elendil already garantued a descent from the royal Númenorean line.)

If even in the times of Arvedui and FÃ*riel the ways of Gondor were chosen over the old ways of Númenor, then it would not have been different in Aragorn's time.

Possibly the using of the Tar-prefix may have been frowned upon as overly archaic. The Gondoreans had great respect for their history, but I think they would rather have seen their own glory restored than that of ancient, failed Númenor.

[alhaQQ]

Hmmm. If you are correct in what you say concerning the Gondorians, eg. their own history, then, I feel that there may have been some "grumbling"--I cannot believe that everyone would have been "smiling and happy" to have a "Northerner" come and "set-up shop" as "King of Gondor", despite what "pedigree" he brings with him (at least in terms of his heritage from Elendil--thru Isildur). Denethor alone couldn't have been the only person with "doubts" (albeit, Denethor had a lot more to lose) about the intentions of the "new order"--as far as they knew, the Northern Dunedain had ceased to exist (until the late revelation, post-Pelennor) as an "organized" society. (BTW, that would make an interesting topic...How much did "Gondor" know about the fate of their Northern brothers, and if they really "cared".)

Despite all that Aragorn brought (tokens of lineage) and did (being the victor--after a fashion--of the War of the Ring, etc.), I see that some of the Nobility and Gentry of Gondor would: a.) be a bit uneasy with his decent from Isildur, whom, they may consider the author of the whole "bloody" mess to begin with, and b.) wonder what this new order would do to their "power base". It was Aragorn, who "rallied" the western (and possibily southern) provinces of Gondor to provide aid for the battles of the Pelennor and the Black Gate--not the nobles themselves, despite the small contingents from places like Dol Amroth (I think he brought the largest contingent--700 men at arms)--I believe he was able to muster a larger force than all these combined. (I may be wrong--but I remember that he collected something between 2000 and 5000 men for the relief of the Pelennor.) Those nobles and gentry may have developed an "independent" streak due to the rise of the "Stewards", who some lords may have regarded as just a "first among peers". The arrival of a "strong", independent-minded King, who had the ability to "control" the masses, would definitely be a dangerous threat to their authority and make the situation rather "delicate" from any angle.

I realize this is speculation, however, I think that Aragorn would have used whatever he needed to "quash" any grumblings; tying himself to the early glory of Numenor (the use of a full quenya King-Name certainly points him in that direction), rather than the later downfall--rejecting the bad things--that happened later (and were seemingly mirrored in some of Gondor's less pleasant actions).

It's a bit late so I'll leave this thought-in-progress incomplete--

[Earniel]

Oh, I'm not saying there wouldn't have been any grumblings at all. When the battles had been fought, Aragorn may very well have faced some political battles as well.

My argument is merely that taking on the Tar-prefix would not have helped against this.

[Valandil]

Interesting discussion, alhaQQ. And welcome to Entmoot!

From another angle, Aragorn-Elessar taking the "Tar" prefix may have aggrevated some of the feelings you described. It might have seemed presumptuous, spurring a "Who does he think he is?" reaction.

I wonder if the less widespread knowledge of the Elvish languages might have been a factor - but probably not a serious one. People would nonetheless recognize the prefix from the old line of Numenorean Kings - even if the full significance of it was lost on some.

[alhaQQ]

...I'm most certain that those Gondorian nobles who would be "less than happy" anyway, would be that much more "flumoxed" over the sudden apppearance of this (mangy, wild looking, and uncivilized) man who brings supposed heirlooms (er, shiny trinkets??? Think of the pieces of the "true cross" and the whole forests consumed in crafting them), and then seems to think he's "so smarty" (Thanks, Your Honor...Big Boss Nass... ) that he feels he can claim a lofty title--"King of the West" (according to EofA, one of his titles--but no direct quote from Tolkien's work, "chapter and verse") and so on. If I am not mistaken, Ar-Adunakhor was "poo-pooed" for using "roughly" the same title (albeit, Adunakhor would have been a bit more "smug" about the whole thing); Aragorn (thankfully) was not from that branch of the "tree of Elros", and did excercise "restraint" and treated Gondor (seemingly) as a full partner along with his Northern Bretheren.

Frankly, I would have liked Tolkien to pull that old title out--to enhance the idea of the "reunited kingdom" (since he pardoned everyone and his mother--maybe even the Umbar Numenoreans would have been given a "pass"). Even better would have Gandalf "produce" the Scepter of Numenor (since it wasn't Pharazon's right to have it to begin with)--completing the "restoration" that I think Tolkien was trying to get at--not just of the realm of Elendil, but of the greater divsions between the Numenoreans themselves (eg. Kings Men v. Elendili) and even to address the sundering of all of the Atani from each other (however remote...).

[Finrod Felagund]

Actually, if you look at Aragorn's name...it would be doubling up if he used a "TAR"

Tar was the elvish version of royal notation, while if you notice later kings used "Ar", which was the Westron equivalent.

The kings of Arnor and their descendants simply incorporated it right into their names;

ARvedui, ARathorn, ARagorn etc.

Aragorn already has the royal title...in his given name.

[The last sane person]

Maybe he could do the whole "King of Kings" style name if he doubled up. Persian Monarchy often did the same.