What is death for Ainur?

[CrazySquirrel]

I would like to continue the discussion on death and immortality of Ainur, started in another thread, as I find it very interesting. I am afraid I am not knowledgeable enough in these matters, so I will explain how I see it, and please, correct me if I am wrong.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

sauron was an ainu, they cannot die (the witchking was not, and saruman once was, but he was changed like the other wizards that were sent to middle-earth to be more human... and even then, we can not be sure that his spirit did not continue on)

First of all: What is "to die?"

As I see it, for a man or an elf "to die" means that their spirit (fëa) leaves the body (hröa) and goes to Mandos and beyond (in case of Men). Hröa remains and slowly rots. Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar. So here we have a "mortal" hröa and an immortal fëa. In this Elves and Men are alike, only an Elven hröa endures much longer, almost indefinitely long.

Now let us take an Ainu. They are immortal fëar not necessarily clad in a hröa. (Somewhere Tolkien says that bodies are like clothes to them). Ulmo may appear as a wave, Yavanna as a tree etc., but mostly they are clad in anthropomorphic hröar. If a hröa of an Ainu is irreparably damaged, the fëa clads itself into a new one. No big deal normally.

But there is the notion of an "incarnate" ainu. Melkor and Sauron became more and more incarnate:

From Osanwë Kenta: "Here Penolod adds a long note on the use of /hröar/ by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a 'self-arraying', it may tend to approach the state of 'incarnation', especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). 'It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less to the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. ...Pengolod also cites the opinion that if a 'spirit' (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. ... Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. ... So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed.' (Pengolod here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth.

So in LOTR we seemingly have only incarnate Maiar. Sauron became a fully incarnate maia by his own evil deeds (see above). The same may apply to the Barlog.The Istari were clad in real bodies of Men, when sent on their mission to the Middle Earth (and it looks like they were incarnated by the power of the Valar, not their own).

What is death to all these incarnate Maiar? When their hröa is damaged, the immortal fëa lives on, but is nullified - rendered powerless until it manages "to rebuild a semblance of its former habitation" That must take a lo-oong time, (1000+ years for Sauron) UNLESS the fëa gets some help from the Valar (Gandalf's fëa went back to Valinor and got reincarnated in less than a month) or from the Ring (Sauron after the Downfall got reincarnated in less than 100 years).
The poor Barlog was "nullified", when Gandalf destroyed his body and he got no external help. Though perhaps, who knows, in 2000 years he may walk again.
The same applies to Saruman. No help from the Valar: his spirit turned to the West, but was rejected, so his houseless fëa remained in ME. But I agree with brownjenkins, his spirit did continue on. As well as Sauron's after the destruction of the Ring.

Interesting what happens with Maiar's hröar. We witnessed several "deaths" of incarnate Maiar:

1. Sauron at Orodruin. We don't know what happened with his body. I personally think that at it was literally burning hot it simply withered to ashes and disappeared, after Isildur cut the finger.

2.The Moria Barlog was thrown down from the mountain peak but then what??

3. Gandalf suffered critical damages in his fight with the Barlog. I think after that he got a new body as
a. he was not immediately recognizable
b. he had no traces of burns and bruises.
c. he claimed that he forgot a lot and remembered a lot etc, no wonder with a new brain!

4. Saruman - most interesting case.

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Here no body is left to rot. I think we have two similar cases with the non-Ainur.

1. the Witch-King - disappeared entirely, leaving no body, either visible or invisible. Perhaps the nazgul acquired some Ainu properties?

2. Feanor.

Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.

A death of an Ainu.
If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well.


Here is the end of my ramblings. What do you think on this all?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well.

Great "conspiracy" theory, CS!!

[brownjenkins]

The same applies to Saruman. No help from the Valar: his spirit turned to the West, but was rejected, so his houseless fëa remained in ME. But I agree with brownjenkins, his spirit did continue on. As well as Sauron's after the destruction of the Ring.

and during his first confrontation with gandalf it was discovered that saruman had also made some kind of "ring of power"... hmmm

too late for me to comment on these thoughts today, but good ones

[Elanor]

Well, I would say that unlike elves and men, the life-force of a Maia is not normally tied to their bodies, but to their power and their will (this is true to a lesser extent for elves and men also; they can die from simply losing the will to live). CrazySquirrel said a lot about Incartation that changes this, but I'll focus on the normal case. When Maiar have more power, their life-force is strong and they can more easily create a new body. When Saruman's staff was broken, he lost his power, and since he had grown bitter by the time Wormtongue killed him, his will was also pretty weak. Sauron protected his life-force by putting his power and will into the ring. When he lost it, his body died, but his life-force remained since his power and will still existed in the ring. When it was destroyed, his rudimentary body (the Eye) died again. I think the Balrog lost its power and will gradually in the fight with Gandalf, so it is also powerless to return.

I believe that their spirits didn't die but that they're still out there somewhere and perhaps have some small intelligence and sense of self left, but with no power or will they are helpless to do anything but perhaps give people evil thoughts. Power is also related to will, I think, for Gandalf seems to have more or less power depending on his mood and level of desperation.

As for Feanor, I really don't think he was any form of Maia, just an elf whose spirit was too strong for his body. Spirits can be compared to fire, I think. We speak of some people having more "spark" or "fire" than others-- their will is stronger. I think that's what Feanor's "fiery spirit" means. It made him powerful in learning, craftsmanship, and magic, but also arrogant and self-obsessed, and led to his downfall.

[The Gaffer]

Nice topic, CS. Couple of observations:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

As I see it, for a man or an elf "to die" means that their spirit (fëa) leaves the body (hröa) and goes to Mandos and beyond (in case of Men). Hröa remains and slowly rots. Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar. So here we have a "mortal" hröa and an immortal fëa. In this Elves and Men are alike, only an Elven hröa endures much longer, almost indefinitely long.

My understanding was that all elves eventually reincarnate in Valinor, but that Mandos would hang on to them for a variable length of time depending on how goodly they were (the more worthy the quicker their reincarnation).

Also, elves who do not die and do not travel into the West gradually fade from the material world. Their hröa is consumed by their fëa.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

1. the Witch-King - disappeared entirely, leaving no body, either visible or invisible. Perhaps the nazgul acquired some Ainu properties?

I think that ring-bearing gave a Man a different sort of existence. Remember that Frodo would have "faded" and become a wraith if he'd worn the Ring for too long, and how Glorfindel had extra powers against the Nazgul because he had been to the Blessed Realm. So, I would say it gives you some Elvish properties rather than Ainu ones.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Elanor

As for Feanor, I really don't think he was any form of Maia, just an elf whose spirit was too strong for his body. Spirits can be compared to fire, I think. We speak of some people having more "spark" or "fire" than others-- their will is stronger. I think that's what Feanor's "fiery spirit" means. It made him powerful in learning, craftsmanship, and magic, but also arrogant and self-obsessed, and led to his downfall.

That is what was written in the official story. But why did he get so much "spark"?
I think I offer a realistic explanation .

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Great "conspiracy" theory, CS!!

Well it fits, doesn't it? (CS smiles proudly )
Feanor's mother killed herself, his father remarried (also very exceptional- but understandable if his first wife had been unfaithful) and Feanor himself got a "fiery" spirit and a cruel, evil character...

Originally Posted by Elanor

Sauron protected his life-force by putting his power and will into the ring. When he lost it, his body died, but his life-force remained since his power and will still existed in the ring. When it was destroyed, his rudimentary body (the Eye) died again.

You don't really believe that Sauron had no body but the eye???

No, no, it is only in the movie!

[Rían]

thread question - "What is death for Ainur?"

Answer - listening to Tom Bombadil's songs 24/7 ...



(and more on-topic : aren't they called the "deathless ones" somewhere? or is my memory failing me?)

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

thread question - "What is death for Ainur?"

Answer - listening to Tom Bombadil's songs 24/7 ...

That's why Gandalf never stayed there for more than a couple days.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(and more on-topic : aren't they called the "deathless ones" somewhere? or is my memory failing me?)

In what way are they more "deathless" than the Elves? In both cases the fea is immortal. Only Ainur are normally self-reincarnable , while the Elves need old Namo for that.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

the Witch-King - disappeared entirely, leaving no body, either visible or invisible. Perhaps the nazgul acquired some ainu properties?

No, not "acquired" but "inherited" . How so?

The answer lies in the drafts for the story, published in HOME 6-8. Tolkien had an earlier conception of the Witch King, where his nature and identity were no mystery. In LOTR drafts he was called "the Wizard King" and was originally the most powerful WIZARD of the same order as Gandalf.

"Gandalf has insufficient magic to cope with Black Riders unaided, whose king is a wizard" The Treason of Isengard p. 9

War between Ond and Wizard King....Tarkil's fathers had been driven out by the wizard that is now Chief of the Nine" The Treason of Isengard p.116

"Then my heart failed me for a moment; for the Chief of the Nine was of old the greatest of all the wizards of Men, and I have no power to withstand the Nine Riders when he leads them" The Treason of Isengard p. 132.

"Denetor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgul. Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the Wizard King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order...from Numenor. 'So far I have saved myself from him only by flight'...""The War of the Ring" p.326.

Interesting that the idea that the 9 Rings were given to MEN was a very early conception:

"But all the Nine Rings of Men have gone back to Sauron, and borne with them their possessors, kings, warriors, and wizards of old, who became Ring-wraiths and served the maker and were his most terrible servants" The Return of the Shadow, p.260.

On the contrary, the idea that Wizards were Maiar who were sent to ME from Valinor in the THIRD Age was a late idea, from the time when "The Istari" in the Unfinished Tales were written (after the main text of the LORT and before the Appendices).

Of course, when Tolkien made up his mind about the nature of Wizards, and decided they came to ME around TA 1000, it became impossible for the WK to be one of them, because, how then "the 9 rings were given to men?" How could a Maia become a wraith?

So, the "Wizard King" was changed to the "Witch-King" throughout the text, and a few sentences when Gandalf reveals his nature (see quotes above) were removed.
But that was all. Nothing was changed in the scene of the WK's death - so his body disappears much like Saruman's (and understandably so).

Everyone reading LOTR gets a clear impression that Gandalf fears the WK, because he is overmatched. And it made sense in the earlier conception, because the Wizard King was the more powerful WIZARD of the two, or had similar power and strength as Gandalf the White. Also the WK still remains the strongest BY FAR than the other nazgul (though now the reason for it is gone).

That is how the Witch-King lost his identity. He is still called "King and Sorcerer of old", but Tolkien never came up with a new story for him, that had to explain why he was so very powerful.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

No, not "acquired" but "inherited" .
Nothing was changed in the scene of the WK's death - so his body disappears much like Saruman's (and understandably so).

Everyone reading LOTR gets a clear impression that Gandalf fears the WK, because he is overmatched. And it made sense in the earlier conception, because the Wizard King was the more powerful WIZARD of the two, or had similar power and strength as Gandalf the White.
That is how the Witch-King lost his identity. He is still called "King and Sorcerer of old", but Tolkien never came up with a new story for him, that had to explain why he was so very powerful.

I still stand by Tar-Ciryatan as a mortal man, who in his unnaturally long life managed to acquire an advance knowledge in wizardry.

And of course he was outmatching Gandalf in skill, Istari were not allowed to reveal their true power. But on another hand they even was not equpped with much in the first place: they were rendered powerless without theirs staffs with a lazer beam.
To defense his inadequacy Gandalf has to come up with an excuse that he stands up against more powerful entity of his own kind, because, contrary to Gandalf and Saruman, the Witch-king had a power even to change the weather.

I don't think that Wikkie belongs to any lower (or higher) "powers"of the world. His body disappeares much like Saruman's, but also much like the Army of the Dead, who were men happened to hang around in the world of shadows for too long for their own good, just like the Witch-king. To die in fashion of normal men he, and other Nazgul, were too much on another side and almost lost their physical bodies . But they were men, nontheless, and their spirits, even as corrupted, as it could ever be, flew to the Hall of Mandos to be judged. They had only one physical form and with lost of it their spirits doom to wander "homeless".

But for ainur the physical form is not a "home" for their spirit, it is a temporary cover. Their spirits are parts of thoughts of Eru, and will live as long as Eru will exist, at will reincarnate itselves again and again.
Thought the ability to reincarnate yourself is greatly depends on theirs power.
The lower maiar, like Istari, have not a cloth, but physical bodies, which can simply die.

In Tolkien's view -any kind of death is just the destruction of the physical cover, however that may in some way affect the soul.

[Gordis]

Olmer, I have no time for a reply now, I only want to tell you how happy I am to see you back!

The Moot has been SOOO dull without you!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Olmer, I have no time for a reply now, I only want to tell you how happy I am to see you back!

The Moot has been SOOO dull without you!

Gee... thanks a LOT, Gordis!





Welcome back though, Olmer!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Gee... thanks a LOT, Gordis!

Well, well, Val, ... no offence meant.

But there was not a single major conspiracy theory since Olmer left! Neither was there a single animated discussion in the books threads. That's why I almost stopped posting there.

You know I don't like playing trivia games or discussing "who is your favourite what's not".

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I still stand by Tar-Ciryatan as a mortal man, who in his unnaturally long life managed to acquire an advance knowledge in wizardry.

Nobody asks you to abandon your theory for the one that Tolkien has rejected himself.
I have been wondering what impact the existence of an earlier conception of the Wizard King might have on your theory. I think there might be some evidence to support it, actually. I shall have to think on it more.

Originally Posted by Olmer

And of course he [The WK]was outmatching Gandalf in skill, Istari were not allowed to reveal their true power. But on another hand they even was not equipped with much in the first place: they were rendered powerless without theirs staffs with a lazer beam.
To defense his inadequacy Gandalf has to come up with an excuse that he stands up against more powerful entity of his own kind, because, contrary to Gandalf and Saruman, the Witch-king had a power even to change the weather."

Well, all the sentences where the Witch-King was called a "wizard" were removed from the LOTR, so now Gandalf cannot be accused of inventing things to cover "his own inadequacy"..

Originally Posted by Olmer

I don't think that Wikkie belongs to any lower (or higher) "powers"of the world. His body disappeares much like Saruman's, but also much like the Army of the Dead, who were men happened to hang around in the world of shadows for too long for their own good, just like the Witch-king. To die in fashion of normal men he, and other Nazgul, were too much on another side and almost lost their physical bodies . But they were men, nontheless, and their spirits, even as corrupted, as it could ever be, flew to the Hall of Mandos to be judged. They had only one physical form and with lost of it their spirits doom to wander "homeless"..

The Witch-King never belonged to Maiar. In the original Tolkien's conception he was the mightiest of the wizards, but wizards themselves were Men, not Ainu. Once Tolkien, somewhere before 1954, decided to move wizards to that category of beings, the Witch-King stopped being a wizard, he remained a Man.

I don't think the Nazgul could be likened to the Dead of Dunharrow. I think the latter had no material bodies, they were only spirits trapped in Middle-Earth, while the nazgul still had their material (but invisible) bodies, so were able to wear clothes, wield weapons and ride horses/Fell beasts.

But you may be right that a nazgul could hardly die in the same fashion of a normal Man. Perhaps they existed entirely "on the other side" but could temporarily move into the physical world for a time? A sort of temporary incarnation?
The difficulty here, as I see it, is that Tolkien himself hardly had a consistent idea on the matter.

Originally Posted by Olmer

In Tolkien's view -any kind of death is just the destruction of the physical cover, however that may in some way affect the soul....
But for ainur the physical form is not a "home" for their spirit, it is a temporary cover. Their spirits are parts of thoughts of Eru, and will live as long as Eru will exist, at will reincarnate itselves again and again.
Thought the ability to reincarnate yourself is greatly depends on theirs power.
The lower maiar, like Istari, have not a cloth, but physical bodies, which can simply die.

This is true, except that Istari were incarnate maiar, not lower maiar. Sauron was one of the mightiest Maiar, but he has become incarnate as well.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

In what way are they more "deathless" than the Elves?

I don't know - I was only putting that out to see if anyone else remembered it.

The Ainur are definitely different than the Eldar, tho - The Ainur were originally outside of Arda, then some of the Ainur entered Arda and some didn't, while the Eldar were created in Arda.

[Sister Golden Hair]

A good example of one of the Ainur for this thread would be Melian. After Thingol's death, she fled her Elven form. Do you suppose she went back to Valinor? Did she take another form, or did she die?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother.

I'm afraid that you won't be comfortable in my shoes, Squirrel
There is no conspiracy.
Did you ever heard of spontaneous combustion? People get burnt to ashes in real life without any illegimate relations to the Dark Charmer.

The Gaffer

I think that ring-bearing gave a Man a different sort of existence. So, I would say it gives you some Elvish properties rather than Ainu ones.

I agree, they would fade eventually into nothingness. The Rings were only posponing the process on indefinite time.

Gordis

I think there might be some evidence to support it, actually. I shall have to think on it more.

How it might happened that in Numenor they have had the same istari-wizards order like in Valinor? Even with Elves they had restricted contacts, but with ainur...
Only one occurence of Numenor's straight contact with Valinor has been registered in Numenor's history:in the time of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir "the messengers" from Aman had been wisiting the Isle of Elenna. But I have no idea of how to connect this fact with an establishment of the order.
Gordis

This is true, except that Istari were incarnate maiar, not lower maiar. Sauron was one of the mightiest Maiar, but he has become incarnate as well.

The difference is that one can reincarnate himself, another had to be reincarnated by somebody else. So, on the scale of power Gandalf is much lower than Sauron."I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still" (TTT. "The white rider")

RÃ*an

The Ainur are definitely different than the Eldar, tho - The Ainur were originally outside of Arda, then some of the Ainur entered Arda and some didn't, while the Eldar were created in Arda.

Right, ainur can travel in space and time, so when they abandon their incarnated body they continue on existingin Universe. This is how Gandalf describes his experience when his FЁА left his body.
"I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell."
..."the stars wheeled over and each day was as long as a life-age on the earth." (TTT. "The white rider")

Gordis

But there was not a single major conspiracy theory since Olmer left!

So, I have got a hat of local jester?
Thanks a bunch, guys!!!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

How it might happened that in Numenor they have had the same istari-wizards order like in Valinor? Even with Elves they had restricted contacts, but with ainur...
Only one occurence of Numenor's straight contact with Valinor has been registered in Numenor's history:in the time of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir "the messengers" from Aman had been wisiting the Isle of Elenna. But I have no idea of how to connect this fact with an establishment of the order.

I was talking about DRAFTS of the text of the LOTR, written at least 10 years before Tolkien has decided that wizards were Maiar. And it was also Long before he invented Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir. At this time Ar-Pharazon was the 13 King of Numenor and the messengers from Valinor came to him

Tolkien's original idea was that wizards were Men: Gandalf spoke of "our noble profession". Originally there was no connection of wizards to Valinor, instead, some of them were meant to be Numenoreans, only with special knowledge and powers.
And though Tolkien has corrected almost all the vertiges of this earlier conception from the text, some are still there. For example:
"Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten"
Now everyone thinks that it refers to Valinor. No, originally it referred to Numenor. And really, what "youth" can Gandalf the Maia speak about? The maia was young long before the stars and the Sun and the trees...

It is useless to argue against the earlier drafts using the conceptions that were developed much later. Yes, sure they do not fit, but that's why they were edited!

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I'm afraid that you won't be comfortable in my shoes, Squirrel
There is no conspiracy.
Did you ever heard of spontaneous combustion? People get burnt to ashes in real life without any illegimate relations to the Dark Charmer.

Welcome back, Olmer.
Well, I will leave your shoes to you, as you are back

But I still prefer my "Feanor as the Dark Charmer's son" idea to your spontaneous combustion.
At least my theory explains all the facts.

[Elanor]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

A good example of one of the Ainur for this thread would be Melian. After Thingol's death, she fled her Elven form. Do you suppose she went back to Valinor? Did she take another form, or did she die?

I think it's a mystery. I wrote a little story about her ultimate fate in the writing forum.