Elladan and Elrohir

Foul_Dwimmerlaik · 02-05-2002, 11:45 PM

One question and a point that was discussed in an ealier thread:

Are Elrond's sons considered Rangers? They certainly act that way when they arive with Halbarad and the rest, and they defer to Aragorn.

Also, there are clues that they have chosen to live as Men. Only Legolas is mentioned as not being afraid of the Dead, and inclusio unius est exclusio alterius.

allsirgarnet · 02-06-2002, 09:24 AM

Does the "Chosen to live as men" refer to the choice Arwen makes at her fathers departure?.If so i think the choice only applies when Elrond decides to depart as the gift stems from him.Up until that time they have Elven immortality i should think as does Arwen.

Maybe their Human blood doesnt give them a choice in being afraid of the dead and that they are succeptable regardless.

As to qualifying as Rangers i dont think so.Rather you could say that their ancestry gives them more of an interest and more of a reason to intermix with men and their affairs than it might if they were purely Elven.

The Elven enclaves seem isolated compared to the way other races mix with men.Treebeards comments to the two hobbits on hearing their tale added to the reactions of the elves on meeting the Fellowship might confirm this.

The two brothers probably feel a sense of duty considering their fathers part in the history of ME.

One other point is that in all but name Aragorn is effectively their brother since he was taken in and raised as such after Arathorns death.

Lastly i get the impression Aragorn always Defers to them regarding matters of importance as equals rather than as Rangers.Halberad the only Ranger we actually hear from always treats Aragorn as his chief even though Aragorn himself never seems concerned to emphasise his position.His leadership is always unstated as it should be,because as you can see many times in the tales people ,even strangers to him "feel" his authority and presence.

Feel free to comment my friends.

Pailan · 02-06-2002, 04:05 PM

I had the impression that the E & E chose to remain behind when Elrond departs. It's never clear to me what their fate was. The last we hear of them is when Celeborn tires of his kingdom in southern Mirkwood and joins them in Imladris.

I think their errantry, derring do, and other Ranger like behaivors are because of their mother's capture and torture by Orcs. They got a taste for action, liked the sword better than poetry and song. So while they hung out with the Rangers from the North, they weren't beholden to Aragorn. It was the only gig in town, so to speak.

allsirgarnet · 02-06-2002, 04:23 PM

Remember that although considered a "wiseman" at the time of the War or the Ring,Elrond was primarily a warrior not a scholar.

As you say the fate of their mother was most likely a huge motivation too.

It was probably a mixture of all of these which prompted them into action.

One thing though i'm unsure of,is their "'mortality" in relation to their father.

Isnt it implied that Arwen by staying and not leaving for the west with her father became "mortal",and if so does this apply to the brothers too?

In the tales Aragorn "gives up" his life before he becomes "unmanned" as king in his dotage,and when after his passing Arwen returns to Lothlorien its implied that she gives up her life too (not specificaly but that like Aragorn she could choose when to pass).

If this is correct then did the brothers age as Numenoreans like Aragorn until they felt the weight of their humanity to much to bare and gave up,because as Arwen stated their were no more ships westward from the havens.

To clarify was Arwens and her brothers Elven immortality only extant while Elrond remained in middle earth?

If so and as you say they remained like Arwen,did they become mortal like her?

Thoughts anyone?

Wayfarer · 02-06-2002, 04:31 PM

Arwen's mortality was linked to Aragorn...otherwise she would have been immortal whether she stayed or left.

Elladan and Elohir would hav estill been elves unless they chose to marry a human woman (and thus become 'men'). They could still leave any time tyhey wanted... if nescessary they could have built thier own ship.

Foul_Dwimmerlaik · 02-06-2002, 04:34 PM

Then why were they scared of the Paths of the Dead? Shouldn't they have shared Legolas' Elvish immunity from fear of dead Men?

Pailan · 02-06-2002, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by allsirgarnet

One thing though i'm unsure of,is their "'mortality" in relation to their father.

Isnt it implied that Arwen by staying and not leaving for the west with her father became "mortal",and if so does this apply to the brothers too?....

To clarify was Arwens and her brothers Elven immortality only extant while Elrond remained in middle earth?

If so and as you say they remained like Arwen,did they become mortal like her?

Yes, but Legolas bails out late for the Undying Lands w/ Gimli. Why not E & E with Celeborn?

allsirgarnet · 02-06-2002, 05:09 PM

Just found an important quote,

Elrond to Aragorn while they discuss his love for Arwen.

Aragorn "'What is this Doom?"

Elrond "That so long as I abide here,she shall live with the Youth of the Eldar,and when i depart,she shall go with me if she so chooses"

This to me seems pretty clear.

Elrond is saying we (my family) are immortal in ME until i (me)depart,and in the following exchanges its implied that her immortality depends on going with him or staying.

IF this is so,it would mean the same for the brothers surely?

Legolas as an Elf i think would automatically be allowed into the far west,and Gimli was allowed i presume on the "sayso" of Galadriel already there.

As to the brothers sailing we come back to their status,in that if as mortal men they werent elligable to travel west or as elves they were.This leads back to Elrond,which if you see above suggests that they only kept their "elvishness" aslong as he abided in ME.If he departs without them they "'have made their choice" and become automatically mortal men,and so do not have the choice of passing westwards.

Arwen virtually says this to Aragorn on his deathbed when he suggests she go westward,to which she replies there are no ships ,the choice is long over and she must abide that choice regardless of her wishes.

Link that to Elronds statement long before and to me it means one thing,immortality ends when Elrond leaves for her and the brothers..

Wayfarer · 02-06-2002, 05:12 PM

It doesn't say they were. Certainly, they had not problem following Aragorn, and if only Legoalas spoke up, only gimli was truly in need of encouragement. Nobody else had any reason to say what they felt.

allsirgarnet · 02-06-2002, 05:38 PM

I think you'll find on entering/travelling through the paths of the dead,that the whole company (apart from Legolas/Gimli) were only held to their course by the will of Aragorn,which possibly suggests that the Rangers AND the brothers were both succeptable to the fear.

Wayfarer · 02-06-2002, 05:44 PM

Ah! But the book doesn't say 'apart from legolas and gimli'. It's likely that yes, the dunedain were held there only because of aragorn, but the elves wouldn't have been.

Pailan · 02-06-2002, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by allsirgarnet
which possibly suggests that the Rangers AND the brothers were both succeptable to the fear.

This may be applicable if E & E are mortal. Indeed, Legolas holds them in high esteem calling them the "Brethren". They are able to see the host of the Dead as well as Legolas. The problem is the tale gives us only hints and glimpses of what E & E are really all about in the great romance of Middle Earth. Their story would be worth reading. The greatness of LotR is in the multiple layers and back stories on which the entire structure hangs.

For now, I feel they did not have to make the choice that was laid before Arwen. The choice when/if to leave ME was theirs alone to make.

Foul_Dwimmerlaik · 02-06-2002, 06:59 PM

Here's the quote that I'm referring to:

Quote:

The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.

The straight textual interpretation is that E and E were part of the company, and they were not Legolas, therefore their hearts quailed. Since it is apparently Legolas' Elvishness that protects him from the terror, if E and E are Elves shouldn't their Elvishness protect them as well?

Foul_Dwimmerlaik · 02-06-2002, 07:05 PM

Another possibility is that Elrond, who both loved Aragorn and realized that he represented Middle-earth's last best hope against Sauron, sent his sons into the North to protect, teach. and when the time was right, serve Aragorn.

oneof8 · 02-06-2002, 11:41 PM

From Letter #153:
The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share.....When she [Arwen] weds Aragorn.....she 'makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

allsirgarnet · 02-07-2002, 04:09 AM

Some deep thinking going on here but we still have afew stumbling blocks.

First is Elrond himselfs statement to Aragorn "Whilst I abide here.......",which seems a pretty clear statement.If Arwen and her brothers had any other form of choice,Elrond would surely have told Aragorn so.Instead hes seems to be saying that his childrens fate is directly linked to himself.

Secondly we come to F_D's quote from the book itself,which clearly states that the whole company apart from Legolas is affected by fear.The reason i mention Gimli is that in some sections you take his part and see things from his perspective.

"The choice of Luthien" wasnt i think as implied to become Mortal,but rather to LOVE a mortal.

02-06-2002, 04:05 PM	#3
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	I had the impression that the E & E chose to remain behind when Elrond departs. It's never clear to me what their fate was. The last we hear of them is when Celeborn tires of his kingdom in southern Mirkwood and joins them in Imladris. I think their errantry, derring do, and other Ranger like behaivors are because of their mother's capture and torture by Orcs. They got a taste for action, liked the sword better than poetry and song. So while they hung out with the Rangers from the North, they weren't beholden to Aragorn. It was the only gig in town, so to speak. __________________ "Holy Entmoot, Batman!" "Who knows, Robin? This strange mixing of minds may be the greatest single sevice ever performed for humanity! Let's go, but, inconspicuosly, through the window. We'll use our Batropes. Our job is finished." Oh, btw, Frodo lives.

02-06-2002, 04:31 PM	#5
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Arwen's mortality was linked to Aragorn...otherwise she would have been immortal whether she stayed or left. Elladan and Elohir would hav estill been elves unless they chose to marry a human woman (and thus become 'men'). They could still leave any time tyhey wanted... if nescessary they could have built thier own ship. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-06-2002, 04:34 PM	#6
Foul_Dwimmerlaik Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 76	Then why were they scared of the Paths of the Dead? Shouldn't they have shared Legolas' Elvish immunity from fear of dead Men? __________________ Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.

02-06-2002, 05:09 PM	#8
allsirgarnet Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 25	Just found an important quote, Elrond to Aragorn while they discuss his love for Arwen. Aragorn "'What is this Doom?" Elrond "That so long as I abide here,she shall live with the Youth of the Eldar,and when i depart,she shall go with me if she so chooses" This to me seems pretty clear. Elrond is saying we (my family) are immortal in ME until i (me)depart,and in the following exchanges its implied that her immortality depends on going with him or staying. IF this is so,it would mean the same for the brothers surely? Legolas as an Elf i think would automatically be allowed into the far west,and Gimli was allowed i presume on the "sayso" of Galadriel already there. As to the brothers sailing we come back to their status,in that if as mortal men they werent elligable to travel west or as elves they were.This leads back to Elrond,which if you see above suggests that they only kept their "elvishness" aslong as he abided in ME.If he departs without them they "'have made their choice" and become automatically mortal men,and so do not have the choice of passing westwards. Arwen virtually says this to Aragorn on his deathbed when he suggests she go westward,to which she replies there are no ships ,the choice is long over and she must abide that choice regardless of her wishes. Link that to Elronds statement long before and to me it means one thing,immortality ends when Elrond leaves for her and the brothers.. Last edited by allsirgarnet : 02-06-2002 at 05:21 PM.

02-06-2002, 05:12 PM	#9
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	It doesn't say they were. Certainly, they had not problem following Aragorn, and if only Legoalas spoke up, only gimli was truly in need of encouragement. Nobody else had any reason to say what they felt. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-05-2002, 11:45 PM	#1
Foul_Dwimmerlaik Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 76	Elladan and Elrohir One question and a point that was discussed in an ealier thread: Are Elrond's sons considered Rangers? They certainly act that way when they arive with Halbarad and the rest, and they defer to Aragorn. Also, there are clues that they have chosen to live as Men. Only Legolas is mentioned as not being afraid of the Dead, and inclusio unius est exclusio alterius. __________________ Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.

02-06-2002, 09:24 AM	#2
allsirgarnet Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 25	Does the "Chosen to live as men" refer to the choice Arwen makes at her fathers departure?.If so i think the choice only applies when Elrond decides to depart as the gift stems from him.Up until that time they have Elven immortality i should think as does Arwen. Maybe their Human blood doesnt give them a choice in being afraid of the dead and that they are succeptable regardless. As to qualifying as Rangers i dont think so.Rather you could say that their ancestry gives them more of an interest and more of a reason to intermix with men and their affairs than it might if they were purely Elven. The Elven enclaves seem isolated compared to the way other races mix with men.Treebeards comments to the two hobbits on hearing their tale added to the reactions of the elves on meeting the Fellowship might confirm this. The two brothers probably feel a sense of duty considering their fathers part in the history of ME. One other point is that in all but name Aragorn is effectively their brother since he was taken in and raised as such after Arathorns death. Lastly i get the impression Aragorn always Defers to them regarding matters of importance as equals rather than as Rangers.Halberad the only Ranger we actually hear from always treats Aragorn as his chief even though Aragorn himself never seems concerned to emphasise his position.His leadership is always unstated as it should be,because as you can see many times in the tales people ,even strangers to him "feel" his authority and presence. Feel free to comment my friends.

02-06-2002, 04:23 PM	#4
allsirgarnet Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 25	Remember that although considered a "wiseman" at the time of the War or the Ring,Elrond was primarily a warrior not a scholar. As you say the fate of their mother was most likely a huge motivation too. It was probably a mixture of all of these which prompted them into action. One thing though i'm unsure of,is their "'mortality" in relation to their father. Isnt it implied that Arwen by staying and not leaving for the west with her father became "mortal",and if so does this apply to the brothers too? In the tales Aragorn "gives up" his life before he becomes "unmanned" as king in his dotage,and when after his passing Arwen returns to Lothlorien its implied that she gives up her life too (not specificaly but that like Aragorn she could choose when to pass). If this is correct then did the brothers age as Numenoreans like Aragorn until they felt the weight of their humanity to much to bare and gave up,because as Arwen stated their were no more ships westward from the havens. To clarify was Arwens and her brothers Elven immortality only extant while Elrond remained in middle earth? If so and as you say they remained like Arwen,did they become mortal like her? Thoughts anyone?

02-06-2002, 05:38 PM	#10
allsirgarnet Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 25	I think you'll find on entering/travelling through the paths of the dead,that the whole company (apart from Legolas/Gimli) were only held to their course by the will of Aragorn,which possibly suggests that the Rangers AND the brothers were both succeptable to the fear.

02-06-2002, 05:44 PM	#11
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Ah! But the book doesn't say 'apart from legolas and gimli'. It's likely that yes, the dunedain were held there only because of aragorn, but the elves wouldn't have been. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-06-2002, 07:05 PM	#14
Foul_Dwimmerlaik Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 76	Another possibility is that Elrond, who both loved Aragorn and realized that he represented Middle-earth's last best hope against Sauron, sent his sons into the North to protect, teach. and when the time was right, serve Aragorn. __________________ Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.

02-06-2002, 11:41 PM	#15
oneof8 Sapling Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1	quote from Letters From Letter #153: The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share.....When she [Arwen] weds Aragorn.....she 'makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

02-07-2002, 04:09 AM	#16
allsirgarnet Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 25	Some deep thinking going on here but we still have afew stumbling blocks. First is Elrond himselfs statement to Aragorn "Whilst I abide here.......",which seems a pretty clear statement.If Arwen and her brothers had any other form of choice,Elrond would surely have told Aragorn so.Instead hes seems to be saying that his childrens fate is directly linked to himself. Secondly we come to F_D's quote from the book itself,which clearly states that the whole company apart from Legolas is affected by fear.The reason i mention Gimli is that in some sections you take his part and see things from his perspective. "The choice of Luthien" wasnt i think as implied to become Mortal,but rather to LOVE a mortal.

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