The Lord of the Rings Discussion: Chapters 9 and 10

[Fat middle]

I’m sorry for the delay of this introduction. I’ve finally left it in a short summary of the two chapters and some points of discussion. Here it is:

At the Sign of the Prancing Pony and Strider

After a description of Bree and the region around it, and a small introduction to its history and culture –the only region where men and hobbits live together- we see the four hobbits reaching the town after the Sun had gone to rest. There we will met Barliman Butterbur (I wonder where did Tolkien come with that name) and et to know the “multicultural” nature of Bree: travelling Dwarfs, Southerners, the regular company of local men and hobbits... and even a Ranger

We soon see once again the wonderous ability of hobbits to forget pains and perils as soon as they have conveniently had supper and some mugs of ood beer. Here it is my favourite song of all LOTR: There is an Inn (there is an excellent version of this song by The Tolkien Ensemble that I think makes it justice. The authors used to let this song be free for download as a sample of their work. If any of you find a link to it, please post it for the benefit of everybody )

While we're being introduced in the mistery of Strider, he will introduce us a little further into the mistery of the Black Riders and Merry will help to this purpose too, though of course unintentionally... Chapter 10th ends in the same night in which the 9th began, expecting and inminent attack of the riders.

Points for discussion:

1. Little and Big Folk. Did Tolkien want a scenary to pass definetely from the hobbits world to the large darker outside world? These chapters end in a very dark tone that will only increase in the following. Problems in the South, odd Rangers, very close Black Riders... This is not the Shire and I cannot help wondering how could hobbits live in such a world, so...
2. Wouldn’t the contact with men corrupt the nature of hobbits? Or rather how on earth would excellent hobbits (like Nob) stand the company of so many men... Well, good beer may be a good reason
3. It’s a little silliness, but where is Bob? I always wonder if he’s a hobbit or a man. I tend to think he's a hobbit, but is lazyness for work also in the nature of hobbits?
4. What was your first impression of the Rangers, if you can remember it? Adventurers, rascals...
5. In the unfortunate episode of the jump over the moon, where did the ring began to act and how? Could it extend its influence even to Pippin’s unconsciousness to begin to tell Bilbo’s dissapearance, could it even make Strider be overzelous and give unnecessary advices, could it make Frodo phisical,ly fall from the table...? or were all these only unfortunate casualities?
6. The Black Breath. Does it changes our perception of the Black Riders? Are they more terrible now that we know how they attack?... or less terrible because Merry survives the attack? Hehe, if the witch king would know...
7. These chapters are full of excellent quotes. I’ve selected one that tells much of Barliman’s personality and his excellent Inn:

‘There's some mistake somewhere,' said Butterbur, shaking his head. There was too much of that Mr. Underhill to go vanishing into thin air; or into thick air, as is more likely in this room.'

Well, floor is opened again for discussion...

[Beren3000]

First, I'd like to thank you, Fat middle, for taking the time to write the intros (although I feel that chapter 10 could've used a longer intro).
Here are my thoughts:

Originally Posted by Fat middle

1. Little and Big Folk. Did Tolkien want a scenary to pass definetely from the hobbits world to the large darker outside world? These chapters end in a very dark tone that will only increase in the following. Problems in the South, odd Rangers, very close Black Riders... This is not the Shire and I cannot help wondering how could hobbits live in such a world, so...

I agree, the scenery shifts so suddenly it's overwhelming. I think that Bree is the only "cosmopolitan" city in the whole of Middle Earth; therefore, it's only fitting that it be placed directly after the Shire so that the Hobbits experience the full shock of the "real world".

Originally Posted by Fat middle

2. Wouldn’t the contact with men corrupt the nature of hobbits? Or rather how on earth would excellent hobbits (like Nob) stand the company of so many men... Well, good beer may be a good reason

I think that their natures were already corrupted in a way. For one, they (the Breelanders) did not welcome strangers and considered Hobbits of the Shire as somewhat inferior to them. But the fact that so many races could co-exist peacefully is certainly worth each race's individual nature being changed (at least IMO).

Originally Posted by Fat middle

3. It’s a little silliness, but where is Bob? I always wonder if he’s a hobbit or a man. I tend to think he's a hobbit, but is lazyness for work also in the nature of hobbits?

Can't help you there !

Originally Posted by Fat middle

4. What was your first impression of the Rangers, if you can remember it? Adventurers, rascals...

My first impression of Rangers was from the movie not the books, and that was that they were "rascals" as you put it. Troublemakers who roam the borders (sort of Middle Earth's version of prize hunters). I think I got this impression because we're first introduced to the Rangers through Barliman's POV and we know nothing else about them until we meet Strider.

Originally Posted by Fat middle

5. In the unfortunate episode of the jump over the moon, where did the ring began to act and how? Could it extend its influence even to Pippin’s unconsciousness to begin to tell Bilbo’s dissapearance, could it even make Strider be overzelous and give unnecessary advices, could it make Frodo phisical,ly fall from the table...? or were all these only unfortunate casualities?

Interesting question. IMO, Frodo's falling off the table and Pippin's blabbering were just "unfortunate" accidents that the Ring knew how to make good use of. As to why Frodo fell, remember that he was dancing and hopping around on a table, PLUS, he's been drinking .After Frodo fell, the Ring then "acted by sort of "jumping" onto his finger? (Sorry if it's too vague, but we don't exactly know the real powers of the Ring).

Originally Posted by Fat middle

6. The Black Breath. Does it changes our perception of the Black Riders? Are they more terrible now that we know how they attack?... or less terrible because Merry survives the attack? Hehe, if the witch king would know...

I think that the Black Breath actually helps to intensify our fear of the Nazgul. For the first time we see them physically harming a person. Merry's survival (to my mind) does nothing to lighten this fear. If it wasn't for his survival, we wouldn't have heard of the Black Breath in the first place. Also, we're not told what this Black Breath exactly is. This vagueness also increases the fear, IMO.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Fat middle
5. In the unfortunate episode of the jump over the moon, where did the ring began to act and how? Could it extend its influence even to Pippin’s unconsciousness to begin to tell Bilbo’s dissapearance, could it even make Strider be overzelous and give unnecessary advices, could it make Frodo phisical,ly fall from the table...? or were all these only unfortunate casualities?

I think the Ring was subtly influencing events for a fair amount of time before the 'over the moon' incident. At some point during the Hobbit's time in the common room, the Ring realized the potential to create mischief and/or reveal itself, in an attempt to return to its master. The beer, Pippin's talkativeness, the relaxed nature of Hobbit's among friends all contributed to a situation easily exploited by the Ring.
There are other situations where the Ring tries to reveal itself, but other forces work against its power. A prime example is when Frodo and co. first see the Black Rider. Frodo nearly put on the Ring, but (IIRC) he remembered Gandalf's warning, and Gildor and the Elves appeared at an extremely convenient time. (This is also part of the idea that Gandalf hints at - that there are other forces at work besides evil.)
Anyway, the Hobbits could have avoided the whole thing if they had had supper in their room. It would have eliminated the opportunity for the Ring. I think the Ring is sentient about certain things. I think Sauron imbued it with the intelligence, malice, and instinct that would connect them.

Originally Posted by Fat middle
6. The Black Breath. Does it changes our perception of the Black Riders? Are they more terrible now that we know how they attack?... or less terrible because Merry survives the attack? Hehe, if the witch king would know...

I think this makes them more fearful to us when Strider explains it, and that they are the Nazgul. The Black Riders, even just the name, sound less fearful. Also, the Hobbits had seen only one or two at a time, and on familiar territory. Merry's survival of it does not make them less fearful, because of Strider's surprise at his hardiness. This hints at his future slaying of the Witch-King.

[Attalus]

As the quote in my sig makes clear, the primary power of the Black Riders was fear. I have always taken the Black Breath to be a distillation and formulation of that power, making the fear so intense as to cause death.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks for keeping the ball rolling, Fat Middle.

1. Little and Big Folk. Did Tolkien want a scenary to pass definetely from the hobbits world to the large darker outside world? These chapters end in a very dark tone that will only increase in the following. Problems in the South, odd Rangers, very close Black Riders... This is not the Shire and I cannot help wondering how could hobbits live in such a world, so...
2. Wouldn’t the contact with men corrupt the nature of hobbits? Or rather how on earth would excellent hobbits (like Nob) stand the company of so many men... Well, good beer may be a good reason

I don't think that contact with men would necessarily corrupt hobbits.

It's significant that Bree is very ancient. Tolkien states that the settlement pre-dates the returning Numenorean Kings of the Second Age. To me, the suggestion is that the men of Bree are of a particularly independent and indomitable stock, and have plenty of qualities of their own to resist outside influence, the temptations of power or expansionist ambitions.

The suggestion, I think is that the co-habitation with hobbits mutually reinforced these qualities.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by Attalus

As the quote in my sig makes clear, the primary power of the Black Riders was fear. I have always taken the Black Breath to be a distillation and formulation of that power, making the fear so intense as to cause death.

Wow! very interesting POV, Attalus!

So the Black Breath could be sort of a heart attack due to the terrible fear that those creatures inspirated...

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I don't think that contact with men would necessarily corrupt hobbits.

It's significant that Bree is very ancient. Tolkien states that the settlement pre-dates the returning Numenorean Kings of the Second Age. To me, the suggestion is that the men of Bree are of a particularly independent and indomitable stock, and have plenty of qualities of their own to resist outside influence, the temptations of power or expansionist ambitions.

The suggestion, I think is that the co-habitation with hobbits mutually reinforced these qualities.

Yes, but it's curious that, at least for me, the men from Breeland seem the most close to our contemporary culture. I mean that they're so common, so vulgar and also some of them (Ferny) so mean that you can find similar people as soon as you put your foot on the nearer street (or get into the first bar).

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Wow! very interesting POV, Attalus!

So the Black Breath could be sort of a heart attack due to the terrible fear that those creatures inspirated...

Actually, I think of it as mainly mental, like a terrible depression that makes you withdraw from all of your surroundings, or, stated another way, a fear so deep that you are literally afraid to move, and that takes over your body.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Yes, but it's curious that, at least for me, the men from Breeland seem the most close to our contemporary culture. I mean that they're so common, so vulgar and also some of them (Ferny) so mean that you can find similar people as soon as you put your foot on the nearer street (or get into the first bar).

That's interesting; it's not how I'd viewed the Bree men at all. Independent, perhaps suspicious of outsiders, yes, but in many ways they seem much like hobbits. It wasn't Bree men who ended up singing and dancing on the tables

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Attalus

As the quote in my sig makes clear, the primary power of the Black Riders was fear. I have always taken the Black Breath to be a distillation and formulation of that power, making the fear so intense as to cause death.

Hey Attalus... is there a good thread you can resurrect on this one? If not, would you be willing to start one?

It seems to me that JRRT may have changed his mind over time about the nature of the Nazgul. I am somewhat familiar with what you're refering to... but his earlier concept (as portrayed in the book and appendices) seem to have more physical power. An in-depth discussion here would go beyond what we're trying to do with the Discussion Project threads, so I thought another thread would be a nice place to pull in other sources and discuss this point. Are you game?

(I'm not QUITE asking you to step outside. In fact, I see both sides on this... just thought it could yield a nice discussion)

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

It seems to me that JRRT may have changed his mind over time about the nature of the Nazgul. I am somewhat familiar with what you're refering to... but his earlier concept (as portrayed in the book and appendices) seem to have more physical power. An in-depth discussion here would go beyond what we're trying to do with the Discussion Project threads, so I thought another thread would be a nice place to pull in other sources and discuss this point.

I'd like to see that thread too - I've always had the same opinion as Attalus here - the Nazgul's main weapon was the horror they put into their opponents.

Then to the discussion points:

1:
Bree is definately not the Shire, and here we hear more about the problems in the big world outside. It has been hinted to before though. I think the company on their journey has gradually come to encounter the dangers and troubles of the world. The Black Riders, the warnings and hints from the Elves ...

2.
I'm not sure why you think the Bree Hobbits have been corrupted. If there has been any corruption, I'm sure it has gone both ways. The Men are not that bad in Bree, the squinteyed Southerner was a stranger, which leaves us with Harry the gate-keeper and Bill Ferny as the bad Bree-guys.

I agree with Beren that Bree seem to have been the only cosmopolitan place in Middle-Earth at that time. A place where Elves, Dwarves, Men, Hobbits and occationally a few wizards could mingle. At least it used to be that way - you get the impression that the traffic was more lively in former days, but now the North Road was seldom used, Hobbits from the Shire was a rare sight, and I would guess there were not so many Elves around either. Too bad.

3.
Hehehe - I've always thought of Bob as a Hobbit, but your question made me wonder why. I think it is because of the likeness in name with Nob.

4.
Ah, there's too many years since I read LotR first time, I don't remember what I thought of the Rangers then. But in the chapter about Aragorn there are so many subtle hints on who he is, they pass unnoticed on a first reading but are recognised later.

5.
I think the Ring acted on Frodo's will only - the urge he felt to put the Ring on his finger - and it came only when he touched it in his pocket by chance. It is interesting to notice that Frodo felt "as if the suggestion came to him from outside, from someone or something in the room". I wonder if this is referring to the Ring. If it was, wouldn't Frodo feel it coming from the Ring, and not from 'outside'? But what other sources than the Ring could there be?

7.
That's a good one indeed.
I am personally fond of this one, from Strider:

You have put your foot in it! Or should I say your finger?'

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by Artanis

5.
I think the Ring acted on Frodo's will only - the urge he felt to put the Ring on his finger - and it came only when he touched it in his pocket by chance. It is interesting to notice that Frodo felt "as if the suggestion came to him from outside, from someone or something in the room". I wonder if this is referring to the Ring. If it was, wouldn't Frodo feel it coming from the Ring, and not from 'outside'? But what other sources than the Ring could there be?

Interesting. I think that when I read that phrase I tend to think it reffers to the bad guys around (as you see I stick to the idea that the bad or corrupted men were predominant in that room... ). Remember that when Black Riders are near, Frodo feels the same "suggestion". Is it the Ring calling the Riders or are the Riders who are calling the Ring? I'm inclined to think that the Ring wants to make itself manifest always there is bad guys around.

The Men are not that bad in Bree, the squinteyed Southerner was a stranger, which leaves us with Harry the gate-keeper and Bill Ferny as the bad Bree-guys.

You're probably right. Anyway it is the best way to understand why they could live in good harmony with hobbits. Perhaps the problem with my vision here is that I unconsciusly have in mind the Starwars cantina when I enter the Prancing Pony... PJs movie hasn't helped me to have a different vision of it...

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Perhaps the problem with my vision here is that I unconsciusly have in mind the Starwars cantina when I enter the Prancing Pony... PJs movie hasn't helped me to have a different vision of it...

Hehehe, I certainly see what you mean. I too remember the SW canteen - and The FotR movie did everything to picture Bree as a dirty, gloomy place inhabited by scowling drunks.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Perhaps the problem with my vision here is that I unconsciusly have in mind the Starwars cantina when I enter the Prancing Pony... PJs movie hasn't helped me to have a different vision of it...

Oh, bother! Now I'm going to hear that cantina music over and over in my head when reading the Prancing Pony chapter. PJ's movie indeed didn't help at all and to think that from reading the book I almost want to take a room in the Prancing Pony myself! Cosy, inviting, good food, friendly company (can't define all the visitors by the squinty-eyed southern and Bill Ferny now can you?). And the hall where all the other visitors are drinking and singing reminds me of an irish pub, even down to the smoke that blankets the light somewhat. Even Bree seems like a pleasant town to stay, if perhaps a wee bit boring...

[The Gaffer]

I found that, on re-reading that chapter, the film didn't intrude on how I visualised it. Perhaps that's why I didn't think of Bree as such a threatening place. It's also to do with how wonderfully well written it is.

I'm not too sure about the sweeping out of the broken sword thing, though. "Not much use, is it Sam?"

"Damn right, what kind of moron would go wandering around the wilderness with a broken sword? Here, have a gold piece and see if you can get yourself a decent one."

[Rían]

Yes, I thought the broken sword thing was a bit questionable, too - altho I can see why he would want to keep Narsil with him, one would think he would carry an unbroken (read: useful) one, too, for his life in the wild. He talks about Rangers keeping things safe for people - well, how did he do this?

[BeardofPants]

With fisticuffs, obviously! *the ol' one-two*

I've never really worried about Aragorn's method's of protection. Doubtless, he knew karate, or some-such elf-nuts-kicking method from his years spent at rivendell.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It shows he had other methods of protecting himself eg. fire against the Nazgûl but sill wouldn't it have been a good idea to carry a sword that snapped into pieces or at least have carried some sort of weapon bar Narsil?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It shows he had other methods of protecting himself eg. fire against the Nazgûl but still wouldn't it have been a good idea to carry a sword that snapped into pieces or at least have carried some sort of weapon bar Narsil?

Perhaps the dangers he faced in his Ranger-life didn't necesarily always end in swordfights. If push comes to shove you can still stab one with a small bit of blade on the hilt but it's kind of... messy.

On other journeys he may have been armed with an unbroken sword when the goal of the journey demanded it. He could always take and leave weapons in Rivendell or with other Rangers.

Or perhaps the fact that he had no whole blade with him in Bree may indicate that he had no wish whatsoever to confront the enemy in armed combat and relied on his other skills to keep that so.

[Elanor the Fair]

Here is a map of the Bree region. It includes the settlements of Archet, Staddle and Combe as well as Bree. I sure hope this works!!!