Eru/Fate

[jammi567]

On the topic of the Valar and Eru, if Eru hadn't shown them the vision of the World and it's unfolding history, would the Valar have done anything different, or would they still do the same things because Fate was directing the course of history, even with Eru? Or was Eru the creater of Fate along with everything else, and because of this, doesn't have to live by the Rules that He created as much?

I hope we can get a good disscussion out of this.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by jammi567

On the topic of the Valar and Eru, if Eru hadn't shown them the vision of the World and it's unfolding history, would the Valar have done anything different, or would they still do the same things because Fate was directing the course of history, even with Eru? Or was Eru the creater of Fate along with everything else, and because of this, doesn't have to live by the Rules that He created as much?

I hope we can get a good disscussion out of this.

The Athrabeth talks on this to a point. A better question might be: how would the vision and unfolding of the world have been if Melkor had not caused discord in the music.

[jammi567]

ok. well, i like to believe that without melkors discord that the good things in the story would last longer and be better, and that because of him not upseting the music, whether he would either a) forget his pride and anger and go back to the good side, or b) retain a bit of his evilness and bitterness, but make it like thingols and feanors respectively.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by jammi567

ok. well, i like to believe that without melkors discord that the good things in the story would last longer and be better, and that because of him not upseting the music, whether he would either a) forget his pride and anger and go back to the good side, or b) retain a bit of his evilness and bitterness, but make it like thingols and feanors respectively.

The question certianly does place the reader in the "what if" position, which leaves room for a multitude of speculations. I believe that Eru was God and therefore the creator. Was he flawed in his creation or in the way he did it? Perhaps. IIRC, he left the Valar pretty much innocent and ignorant in what was going on, and revealed things to them little by little. Each of the Valar were made from a different portion of Illuvar's thought and were suppose to work in unison. However, it seems the more he revealed to them, the more they became independent of his thought. I think that once Melkor reached this point of knowledge, this is when the discord arose and the flaw in the creation occurred. Could Illuvatar have done more at that point to undo it? Did he let Melkor go too far? Melkor like the other Valar was the offspring of Eru's own thought. I'm not sure Melkor was ever good, but was just less bad in his ignorance than when Eru revealed more.

[jammi567]

i think that by the time Eru had made the Song, He knew it was already too late for Melkor to redem himself "But being alone he had began to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his breathen." So in knowing this, He just left it to be because there was nothing he could do about it. And also, of course, it proves that even before Ea was made, evil was already manifesting itself.

A question to ask ourself is what if Melkor had supressed his pride, sang about good things in the creation song, but turned truely evil after it had finished? Plus, would the elves, men etc have still been created if there had been no discord within the Music?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by jammi567

A question to ask ourself is what if Melkor had supressed his pride, sang about good things in the creation song, but turned truely evil after it had finished? Plus, would the elves, men etc have still been created if there had been no discord within the Music?

Had Melkor supressed his evil and put good things into the Music, then the world itself would not have been plagued with some of the viles that diseased the lands, because he wouldn't have placed his power into the earth. But I don't kmow that turning evil or revealing his evil after the forming of the world, that it would have been any different.

I think Elves, Men, etc would have still been created especially had there been no discord in the Music, because that was the plan, and inspite of Melkor causing discord, the plan proceeded anyway.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

The question certianly does place the reader in the "what if" position, which leaves room for a multitude of speculations. I believe that Eru was God and therefore the creator. Was he flawed in his creation or in the way he did it? Perhaps. IIRC, he left the Valar pretty much innocent and ignorant in what was going on, and revealed things to them little by little. Each of the Valar were made from a different portion of Illuvar's thought and were suppose to work in unison. However, it seems the more he revealed to them, the more they became independent of his thought. I think that once Melkor reached this point of knowledge, this is when the discord arose and the flaw in the creation occurred. Could Illuvatar have done more at that point to undo it? Did he let Melkor go too far? Melkor like the other Valar was the offspring of Eru's own thought. I'm not sure Melkor was ever good, but was just less bad in his ignorance than when Eru revealed more.

Eru was perfect in every way, and everything in his universe was intended that way; the good and the bad. Behold:

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulrmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province ? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost ! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists ; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth ! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'
Then Ulrmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwe, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!' And Manwe and Ulrno have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Iluvatar.

The conception of the other Auinu was more symmetrical. All angles and plains, rectangular oceans and triangular poles and everlasting lamps and no darkness. They probably originally concieved of rows upon rose of uniformed trees for a forest etc. ( I think I had a goog reference for that in the one those other Tolkien books too). Without Melkor there would be no snow capped mountains and no natural bridges formed by the erosion of the sea; in the world of tolkien without the destruction of the lamps there would have been no sun or the moon.

Alas, further proof:

And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive. And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwe the answers of Feanor to his heralds, Manwe wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Feanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.'

But Mandos said: 'And yet remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon.'

Just as president bush and his masters ( for he is just a puppet) gain there one world government, through the human spirit it will become something of pure good and become his undoing, even as they grasp it for their evil purposes (just like lord palpitine in star wars-he is playing both sides/wake up people; he is the terrorists as well as the federal government). The human spirit can not be distinguished. So as america and the constitution was a great creation, slavery still remained evil.

Bush and his masters will pay soon, there time is coming; all evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing; can I get an amen!!!

[Landroval]

I'm not sure Melkor was ever good

Well, in the Council of Elrond, Elrond states that

For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.

I doubt he would make a notable exception (Melkor). In letter #183, Tolkien implies states that Melkor fell - therefore he must have been good once; also there he states that:

(Sauron) had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth.

Thy mouth hath spoken the truth, brother Telcontarion!