Glaurung

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

By some posts in the Turin Turambar and Free Will thread me and Elemmire got into discussing Glaurung. Here are the last two posts about him.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But when Fingon shot at Glaurung he wasn't full grown to man/dragonhood. When Turin defied him he was at the height of his power.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Fingon still shot him.

I'd think that being shot when just a child would have some serious psychological damage. I'm surprised poor Glaurung even got over it...

*reads post*

*reads the last few posts*

Wow. That was horribly Off Topic.

When Fingon shot Glaurung he was still, not a young child I'd say, but what we'd class as a teenager, around 15. In combat, would you prefer to face a 15 year old boy/man or a 30 year old man? This is same sort of thing. When Fingon shot Glaurung it was when he was not fully developed and not in close combat.
When Turin met him he was at the height of his power and it was face to face.
See the difference?

[Pytt]

clearly.
as I see it you are right TD. I think a dragon like Glaurung would be able to take more damage, than a human at the same age.

[Elemmírë]

OH MY GOD!

I was joking, TD!

I can't believe you just started a thread about that!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Pytt

clearly.
as I see it you are right TD. I think a dragon like Glaurung would be able to take more damage, than a human at the same age.

Glaurung still took some arrows which any man would not be able to take and live, but for a dragon he was not fully developed as he was when he met Turin.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

OH MY GOD!

I was joking, TD!

I can't believe you just started a thread about that!

[Elemmírë]

Stupid, pointless, and annoying...

But now I'm going to have to defend my joke.

I honestly don't think that the dragon would have been traumatised, so to speak. It just looked amusing on the screen... . However, I do believe that until Glaurung was killed by Turin (obviously), he had been more injured by Fingon.

So, what exactly are you arguing, TD, that Glaurung was more hurt by Turin at Nargothrond, where (if I read it right ) Turin did not get as much as a single stroke of his sword in before he fell under the dragon's spell?

Or are we debating something entirely different now?

I don't think I understand your argument.

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

When Fingon shot Glaurung he was still, not a young child I'd say, but what we'd class as a teenager, around 15. In combat, would you prefer to face a 15 year old boy/man or a 30 year old man? This is same sort of thing. When Fingon shot Glaurung it was when he was not fully developed and not in close combat.
When Turin met him he was at the height of his power and it was face to face.
See the difference?

I have two letters for you. The first is N. The second is O.

Fingon was born during the Years of the Trees - a period which lasted approximately 10000 sun-years. As far as I know it doesn't say when during that period he was born, but since by the time the Noldor came to Middle Earth he was already respected among his people in addition to being strong enough to march into the heart of hell to rescue his best friend (FA5), It's a good bet that he'd already reached his majority by that time. Furthermore, Glaurung was not spotted for another 250 years (FA260) - which means that Fingon would have been well into his 300th Year at the bare minimum.

Since one of the Eldar would be full grown at an absolute maximum of 150 Years, claiming that Fingon was 'a child of about 15' is entirely ludicris. Fingon was a full grown, highly trained, battle hardened WAR HERO, who was furthermore backed up by a squad of crack archers. This is a FACT. It is NOT OPEN TO DISCUSSION BY THE PEANUT GALLERY.*relax* Oh yeah. That was a nice rant.

[Elemmírë]

Wait... now I'm confused.

TD, are you claiming that Fingon was 15, or that Glaurung was 15?

Because Wayfarer is completely correct if it's the former.

[Wayfarer]

GRRRR! Correct pronoun reference is your friend, people!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Wait... now I'm confused.

TD, are you claiming that Fingon was 15, or that Glaurung was 15?

Because Wayfarer is completely correct if it's the former.

No, what I'm saying is that Glaurung at the time of Fingon shooting him could be as developed for a dragon as a 15 year old, not full come to man/dragonhood. Not that he actually was 15 and I'm definitly not sayin that Fingon was 15!

[Elemmírë]

You had better edit your first post, if you don't want any more snide remarks from the Unsufferable...

btw, Wayfarer, I am not and never will be a member of the "Peanut Gallery." Why don't you come join us and stop making strange sounds...

TD, can you tell me what exactly we're debating? Is it simply who hurt Glaurung more: Fingon or Turin (prior to the slaying)?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not really. Just Glaurung!

[Elemmírë]

You have got to be kidding.

But I've always had a question about the dragons.

Where did they come from? Morgoth is unable to create his own creatures, but can only imitate the creations of other Valar and of Eru...

So... trolls are from Ents.
Orcs are from Elves (and humans).

What about the dragons?

[Pytt]

maybe from eagles? the only thing I can think of. but doesn't it stands in the Sil how Morgoth created them?

[BeardofPants]

I seem to remember tolkien experimenting with the notion of artificial (machine) dragons in HoME somewhere... Anyhoo, the point being that Morgoth could only pervert, not create life. Artificiality adds an interesting element to this.

Okay, I know, that was no help. Just musing to myself. I'll go over here now.

*BoP shifts her ass out of the thread*

[Elemmírë]

That actually is interesting, and helpful. Thanks, BoP.

So... I'm assuming that dragons breed kind of like everything else does (assuming how Glaurung is called "Father of Dragons"...hm, I wonder who the mother was ). How would artificiality affect that? My guess is it's kind of paradoxical.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

(assuming how Glaurung is called "Father of Dragons"...hm, I wonder who the mother was ).

Morgoth swings boths ways.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Morgoth swings boths ways.

(the sad thing is I actually found myself considering that for a moment...I seem to remember reading something about gender in the Valar, but if I didn't just fall asleep and make it up while reading the Silm, I can't find it now... )

[Wayfarer]

Actually... Lefty's suggestion is perhaps correct on one level (though wrong on another).

Although in the earliest drafts the Valar are mentioned as having children, Tolkien later abandoned that idea, and at one point he does specify that Morgoth, in his fallen state, would be incapable of even the minor creative act of conceiving children. Morgoth was, however, physically capable of sexual acts for other purposes - and given those purposes I don't think he'd make much of a distinction between male and female.

[Elemmírë]

*shudders*

Off Topic and intensely disturbing...

Congratulations, Wayfarer!

Oh, god... I wonder what the admins would do if you tried to start a thread up about that...

hm... even more Off Topic: do you really consider conceiving children to be an act of "minor" creative power?

Back to Glaurung though, I suppose a living/machine hybrid could theoretically be possible... Would such a creature be capable of begetting offspring?

[Attalus]

Well, since almost any human (Elf or Man) can concieve children, and nobody but Eru could create a new life form, I think procreation could justly be called a minor creation.