Ilúvatar good & evil

[brownjenkins]

good point sgh... i remember from reading lost tales that jrrt originally had a more segmented version of the afterlife... with the evil going to melkor, the good spirits (even of men) brought back in valinor, and the rest ending up in a kind of limbo

later accounts seemed to have dropped this entirely... one would have to assume that all the spirits of elves and men ended up in the same place, irregardless of how they lived their life

eru, who only very rarely interfered in the course of arda, seems to have never been interested in passing any kind of judgement one way or another in the way that the christian god does

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Rian, you are so terse.

There are differences between Eru and the Christian god. Even if JRRT says in Letters that they are one in the same, he has definitely chosen to create a new character different from the Christian god. Though I do see similarities, I do not see a cloned character.

No, I don't see a "cloned character" either ... what I meant is that one can think about this difficult and interesting question in light of the characteristics of the Christian God - IOW, those characterisics will shed light on the issue. I think there's a lot of insight that can be gained on this issue that way. It is indeed an interesting and relevant question.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I have to agree with this. Also, another difference is that Heaven and Hell seem to be on earth and nowhere else, although the Timeles halls and the void were beyond Arda. Since Tolkien made God, the Valar, and the Children, to be able to interact together and aside from Eru, they all dwelt in Arda, it makes it different from the Christian version. The only similarities I see, is that there is a god, a devil of sorts, devine beings, and good and evil.

It's funny, I never really thought of Melkor as a "devil"... only a Vala that was full of spite for having the reigns held back on him, so to speak.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
good point sgh... i remember from reading lost tales that jrrt originally had a more segmented version of the afterlife... with the evil going to melkor, the good spirits (even of men) brought back in valinor, and the rest ending up in a kind of limbo

Which would follow the Catholic tradition, if Melkor was to be Satan.

later accounts seemed to have dropped this entirely... one would have to assume that all the spirits of elves and men ended up in the same place, irregardless of how they lived their life

Right, with some "healing" in Mandos longer than others for their corruption.

eru, who only very rarely interfered in the course of arda, seems to have never been interested in passing any kind of judgement one way or another in the way that the christian god does

This is what I see also. More or less, as he waited to see what would happen next. But indifferent to the fate of the individual, or the group. After all, he could create a new world if necessary.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
It's funny, I never really thought of Melkor as a "devil"... only a Vala that was full of spite for having the reigns held back on him, so to speak.

Which is why I said 'a devil of sorts.' It isn't so much that he is the devil, but he is in Tolkien's world as close as it gets to that. So I would say this is the role he was cast into, if we compare the story on a Christian parallel. In Tolkien's world, Melkor is the ultimate evil.

[Rían]

I finally have a bit of time to post here - I've been thinking about the posts, but haven't had time to put my thoughts down until now. From Ruinel's opening post:

Originally posted by Ruinel
[B]However, a couple of things come to mind. In the story of the creation of Eá, Eru creates the Valar. Most of them are good and one is evil. He also creates the Maiar. Again, some good, some more prone to evil. In addition, many evil beings came from Melkor (the Orcs).

This may have been posted already, but Melkor wasn't evil at first ... IOW, he wasn't "made" evil.

I'm glad Tolkien put in the story of Aule and his rebellion, and how Aule's heart reacted so differently than Melkor's. Iluvatar said to Aule: "Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? ..." (which is the classic response of the Christian God to sin - bringing up the wrong action for discussion in hope that the person will repent - like in the Garden of Eden, where God says "where are you?" when Adam and Eve hid themselves after their sin. It's not like God couldn't find them! It's like when I see my younger ones doing something wrong, and I can just say their name in a questioning way, and see which way they start to deal with it - either denial or acknowledgement ...)

Then when Aule is done making the Dwarves and was instructing them in speech, Iluvatar spoke to him, and Aule was silent - a pretty good indicator that he knew he did something wrong. Then in answer to Iluvatar's questions above, Aule does NOT deny what was said, and even acknowledges error : "And in my impatience I have fallen into folly". A big difference from Melkor's response.

Aule also goes on to say : "Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father." I love this - total honesty with Iluvatar, with an underlying heart of honest questioning - this is so different from Melkor's defiant actions in answer to Iluvatar. Aule chooses to resume his position of a created being under the rightful and loving authority of Iluvatar, while Melkor continues to try to make himself equal to Iluvatar - a vain task, and a terribly wrong one.

I see people say that both Satan and Melkor really didn't do anything wrong, they were just trying to express themselves. Yet if this is so, then why was Melkor "filled with shame" at Iluvatar's rebuke? To me, their error seems the same - they wanted to BE God - and wanting to be something that is against your very created being is wrong - a crime against nature, I guess, is one thing it could be called. This is one of the areas where the fact that there is NO complete analogy to the relationship between God and humans is unfortunate - comparing it to a parent and child is good for many purposes, but it breaks down in the end in that the child will grow up and become, RIGHTFULLY, a peer to the parent. Yet a human will never be a peer to God - and there is nothing wrong with this; in fact, it is our glory and our joy and our freedom.

Just some opening musings ...

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I see people say that both Satan and Melkor really didn't do anything wrong, they were just trying to express themselves. Yet if this is so, then why was Melkor "filled with shame" at Iluvatar's rebuke? To me, their error seems the same - they wanted to BE God - and wanting to be something that is against your very created being is wrong - a crime against nature, I guess, is one thing it could be called. This is one of the areas where the fact that there is NO complete analogy to the relationship between God and humans is unfortunate - comparing it to a parent and child is good for many purposes, but it breaks down in the end in that the child will grow up and become, RIGHTFULLY, a peer to the parent. Yet a human will never be a peer to God - and there is nothing wrong with this; in fact, it is our glory and our joy and our freedom.

i don't quite agree, though i think you reflect tolkien's sentiments... in my mind, the greatest possible creation is one that meets or exceeds the creator... and the very fact that a creation can be given free will, yet must always accept a lesser position to the creator, is the source of the self-doubt, shame and ultimately, the evil

[Rían]

But if the creator has created everything in existence, how can a creation "out-do" that? If the creator has existed before the creation, how can the creation "out-do" that? It's not a matter of the creator trying to repress the creation, it's a simple matter of fact. And the creations are fully glorious in their own right. I don't see it as having to "accept a lesser position". The position of creator is not up for grabs on a cosmic "Job Openings" bulletin board , nor can it ever be, by the very nature of things. It is no shame to be a step below God.

Also, if we were all competing for God's position, I think THAT would be the source of "self-doubt, shame and ultimately, the evil". That's pretty much what most people do here in the world, anyway (compete for God's position, or compete to be better than others) whereas God tells us that we are inherently of great worth.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Something else I thought of also, Eru takes a back seat to his creation. Only the Valar have any hand in it at all, from the trees to the war with Melkor. When Christians pray, they pray to their god, not to any sub-gods. So, in this respect, Eru is different from the modern Christian god. (This is just a side note, you may discuss this if you wish.)

Yet in Christianity, we see the angels at war against evil.

I think the calling to Elbereth and things like that reflect Tolkien's Catholic background and the intercession of the saints. And what we do read about Eru shows a clear understanding of how He is set apart above the Ainur.

And re "back seat" - can't find the quote now, but someone else mentioned it too - that it's a "pre-Christian" world. We see Eru "working" through the knowledge that people have in their hearts of what is good and evil, I suppose, just like in the time before Abraham. Only starting in Abraham's time, which is quite a few years after the LOTR timeframe, do we see God directly jumping in.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Beor
I do agree with you, and sone could probably argue that Melkor is to be pitied too, for being punished for trying to branch out

I don't think Melkor was innocently trying to "branch out", do you?

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
one could say that this was evidence of melkor's evil... but reading the part i marked in bold, i wonder if by giving melkor the gifts he did, eru may have created a lesser but equal being... passing along the "ego" that eru himself obviously possessed

But it's not "ego" to realize that you created the universe, it's a simple acknowledgement of fact.

eru made a being that had the same desire to be the supreme power behind creation as eru had himself... so it became more of a power struggle between the two of them than "evil"

I see what you're saying, but don't agree - I really see it as more as a denial of truth on Melkor's part - it's just the simple truth that Eru and Eru alone has the Flame Imperishable and created Ea and is the supreme being by right. The Flame Imperishable is part of the very nature of Eru - it's not like Eru stumbled across it one day, and might lose it to Melkor if he's not careful.

this was a struggle that melkor was doomed to lose because he did not possess the power of eru... but by the same token, a struggle melkor could not put aside because of the gifts eru had given him

I think Melkor COULD have put it aside, like Aule did. And Eru gave Melkor chances to do this - and Melkor's own continuing choices eventually put him beyond the chances.

you can almost feel a bit sorry for him (as it seems manwe did)

And I imagine Eru was the most grieved of all to see this lovely being turn, by choice, to corruption

[Rían]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
My interpretation is different (Aside from Tolkien needing bad guys for conflict in a story).
The problem involves free will. To have effective free will one must have agents capable of choosing good or evil, and if they choose to do evil the results, to some extent, must also be allowed (if all efforts by Morgoth et. al. to dominate/destroy others were instantly negated by Eru then there would be no real free will). But in Middle-earth history you do see Eru, or the Valar, acting to eventually thwart evil agents desires, though this may take a long time (see Second Age history especially). In The Hobbit and LOTR you see this subtle working to limit the damage done by Sauron (Bilbo finding the Ring, Gandalf the White returning, etc.) I think it's clear the essential "theology" of Middle-earth is not Manichaen but rather pre-Christian Christian. There are some quotes to that effect somewhere in "Letters."

Ah, here's the reference to "pre-Christian" - I agree with you, Tuor, that in order to have free will, the resulting evil must be allowed, to a controlled extent, and that Eru, or the Valar acting under him, eventually act. I like your point of "subtle working to limit the damage" and those examples (Bilbo finding the ring, Gandalf, etc.)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
It could be that Melkor, in receiving more gifts than the other Valar also obtained more propensity to do evil.

I would say "capacity" to do evil, not "propensity", because propensity indicates an inclination. Would you go with that, or do you still prefer propensity?

Any being with free will has the "capacity" to do either good or evil, by the very definition of free will.

I don't think there was inclination involved; or if there was, the inclination was naturally towards good (defined as the will of Iluvatar, which is good), and it was actually a bit of "work" on Melkor's part to overcome the propensity towards good and to choose to do evil.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I think Melkor COULD have put it aside, like Aule did. And Eru gave Melkor chances to do this - and Melkor's own continuing choices eventually put him beyond the chances.

And I imagine Eru was the most grieved of all to see this lovely being turn, by choice, to corruption

i don't remember any examples of eru giving melkor any particular instruction of even hints at what might be right and what might be wrong... just anger at his variations during the music

does the biblical genesis story have god give a reason to adam on why he should not eat the apple... or is it just understood that since it is the word of god it should be obeyed?

[Rían]

by brownie
i don't remember any examples of eru giving melkor any particular instruction of even hints at what might be right and what might be wrong... just anger at his variations during the music

I think the instructions would be the parts I've bolded in this section:

third paragraph, Ainulindale
Then Iluvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'

And then, further down, "it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself." And the result of this? "discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered..." and some began to go along with Melkor, and "the melodies which had been heard before foudnered in a sea of turbulent sound .... a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged."

You know the tree by its fruits, as the proverb says.

And then in Iluvatar's first (recorded) verbal rebuke of Melkor, he does NOT banish or annihilate Melkor, but instead states the truth - that Melkor is mightiest among the Ainur, but that Iluvatar is above all. Just like in Aule's case. But Melkor was filled with shame, similar to Aule, but where Aule turned to Iluvatar, Melkor turned away with "secret anger". BIG difference in the reaction. Then Iluvatar speaks with the Ainur at great length, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that he attempted reconciliation with Melkor again. I think the very fact that Iluvatar didn't just annihilate Melkor at this point shows that Iluvatar hoped for his redemption. Also that later on, Manwe hoped for his redemption, and Manwe was closest to the heart of Iluvatar, IIRC.

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
does the biblical genesis story have god give a reason to adam on why he should not eat the apple... or is it just understood that since it is the word of god it should be obeyed?

Yes, the reason was "for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die." And indeed, death entered into mankind as a result of Adam's choice (which Adam knew to be wrong, as evidenced by his hiding!)

It seems like a simple thing, but at that point, Adam and Eve didn't even have a tendency towards disobedience. Think of it - all paradise, with only one restriction; and with a right heart, the obeying of that restriction is also a joy and a way of giving a gift back to God, their creator and the one that loves them ... can you remember times when you weren't supposed to do something that you rather wanted to do, and you successfully didn't do it, and the joy you had when you reported to your parents or friends that you didn't do it, and how they rejoiced with you? It's kind of hard to express, but I hope you can see at least a shadow of what I mean.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
I agree with brownjemkins to some extent, I think that of the Valar, Melkor was the one most likely to 'fall', because he was the most powerful. So powerful that he wanted to "create things of his own", and believed himself capable of doing it. This he did not wish to do out of evil intentions. As I see it his 'sin' was to try to be equal to Eru, he refused to recognise his own limits (Aule did in fact make the same mistake, though he repented). But this was something he chose to do, I do not believe he was determined to become evil.

I think the bits that I quoted a few posts ago indicate that his intentions were evil, tho, don't you? I don't think Melkor was thinking "I want to become evil!", but he WAS thinking that he wanted to increase his OWN glory, and was willing to purposely do this at the expense of others, which is at the heart of evil, IMO.

[brownjenkins]

interesting... i guess i just don't quite envision a creator in the same way you, and maybe tolkien, does... i'd imagine a bit more give and take and responsibility for the outcome of all of his creations... the easy ones that took the right path, as well as the hard ones that needed a lot more direction

but it is not the first, or the last , time we'll be on opposite sides of this issue

[Rían]

As long as we can keep meeting in the middle for coffee and a chat, that's ok


and as far as responsibility, as far as the Christian God, He took full responsibility for the giving of free will to mankind - that's what the cross is all about.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I think the bits that I quoted a few posts ago indicate that his intentions were evil, tho, don't you? I don't think Melkor was thinking "I want to become evil!", but he WAS thinking that he wanted to increase his OWN glory, and was willing to purposely do this at the expense of others, which is at the heart of evil, IMO.

Do I have to read ALL your posts now?


Just kidding of course. But I'm not sure which post you're referring to.


No I don't think his intentions were evil to begin with, no more than Aule's intentions were evil. They both wanted to create things of their own, they were both impatient, they were both following their desires but without recognising their limits. And even if Melkor did try to increase his own glory by altering the Great Music, can that be called evil? I don't think so, not unless the intention is to bring forth something bad, and there's no indication that that's what Melkor had in mind at this point.

Also, because he was seeking the Imperishable Flame, Melkor had been on his own most of the time and was perhaps not present when Iluvatar in the very beginning (not for The Great Music) propounded to the other Ainur his themes of music. And so Melkor "had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren." Brownjenkins, RÃ*an, Iluvatar did instruct the Ainur, but I think Melkor missed it!

However I do agree that the reactions from those two Ainur to Iluvatar's waving finger was totally different. But then again, I also think that it was easier for Aule to repent, because he did not have the desire for mastery over his creations as had Melkor. A desire which was a part of how Iluvatar had created him in the first place! I think when Iluvatar had rebuked Melkor for his dischord in the Music, and Melkor saw that he was unable to fulfil his desires, it was then when he took his first step towards evil. He was "filled with shame, of which came secret anger." Unfortunately he chose to give in to his anger more than to his shame.