Glaurung

[Elemmírë]

It could be a very small hoard of treasure.

grr... I hate the 90 second rule...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No treasure hoard is that small.

Argh. 90 second rule.

[Elemmírë]

I beg to differ.

Just because it cannot be seen by the naked eye doesn't mean it does not exist.

You said the Rohirrim bought it from him?

I wonder what our delightful earthworm managed to earn from that endeavour...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well Scatha was slain by one of the Kings of Rohan (I think, i o not have the books handy at the moment to check) and he brought treasures from his hoard bac to Rohan.

[Elemmírë]

You left out the R before. Careful there. Now we have earthworm salesmen running around Middle Earth.

J'ai besoin d'aller...

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Fear me! I am Scatha the Earthworm!

ROTFL imagine trying to steal a treasure you can't even see...reminds me of the Emperor's new clothes fable

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Well Scatha was slain by one of the Kings of Rohan (I think, i o not have the books handy at the moment to check) and he brought treasures from his hoard bac to Rohan.

Actually - a predecessor of the Kings of Rohan. In the late 1970's TA (1978?), Frumgar led the Eotheod north from the Vales of Anduin, where his people had been settled for about 100 years after all the troubles they had with the Wainriders, etc.

It was Frumgar's son, Fram, who slew Scatha - who I'm certain was indeed a dragon. Fram made a necklace of his teeth and offered it to the dwarves instead of their treasure they wanted back (they got ticked and killed him) - so I guess Scatha was one of those dragons who plundered a dwarvish treasury.

It wasn't until about 500 years later, 2510, IIRC, that Fram's distant descendant Eorl led the Eotheod south to rescue the forces of Gondor - and stuck around at the invitation of Cirion the Steward, settling in Calenardhon.

They had about 500 years to squander whatever treasure that Fram got from Scatha - or to squabble over it... unless the Dwarves managed to take some back once they made the hit on Fram.

[Pytt]

Can't they just call them wyrms, when they are similar to dragons? I always imgaine worms, and that is...scary.

and the 90 second rule is out

[Blackheart]

Wyrm is the older spelling of worm.

And in the middle ages, dragons were thought to be creatures of the deep earth, related to worms. Of course, they also thought snakes were a type of worm.

You can see the progression... Stick some wings on a snake (a symbol of evil from ancient times) maybe some legs (not all of them had legs) add a little hellfire and brimstone, and viola, the devil's own Wyrm... A dragon.

[Elemmírë]

That's what threw me. Worms, instead of wyrms. Thanks for the info on the Rohirrim, Val. All that is your department, definitely not mine.

Blackheart, it's somewhat strange that the snake is a symbol of evil in Christian theology... If you were to look at some of the Eastern religions, they're anything but.

I still love dragons.

[Pytt]

Yes. Thank you for the explantion

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Blackheart, it's somewhat strange that the snake is a symbol of evil in Christian theology... If you were to look at some of the Eastern religions, they're anything but.

That would be due to the difference in how eastern mystic thought regards cthonic forces. Dragons are creatures of the earth. Quite natural and right (though they can be dangerous to rouse) in the east.

In the west the earth is the abode of the devil. Especially in the post christian era. It's not hard to see how the split occured.

[snakes=dragons for most mystic purposes, only a difference in degree not type]

[Valandil]

Most of it (esp the part on Fram & Scatha - which is only there, IIRC) is in Appendix A. But there's also some really cool stuff in the story 'Cirion and Eorl' in 'Unfinished Tales'. It doesn't just start with Eorl leading his people to fight for Gondor - it goes way back and tells about the relationship between their peoples for the previous hundreds of years, for the Rohirrim came from the Northmen of Rhovanion - but through many twists and turns and maybe 1300 years. It's interesting stuff. That story also gives the account of the death of King Ondoher and his sons; Artamir and Faramir (father & brothers of Firiel ).

'Rohan' was the name Gondor used for them - and they only began to call their kingdom that after they settled Calenardhon. In the north, UT gives the precise information, but IIRC, they had one main city located where two rivers join together at the head of Anduin.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

In the west the earth is the abode of the devil. Especially in the post christian era. It's not hard to see how the split occured.

You say post Christian. Why not Christian itself?

Originally Posted by Valandil

That story also gives the account of the death of King Ondoher and his sons; Artamir and Faramir (father & brothers of Firiel ).

I was wondering why those names sounded familiar...

[Blackheart]

Post Christian as in after the establishment of the catholic church.
Before that the "devil" wasn't actually envisioned so much as a central figure of evil.