The Chronicles of Narnia, by C.S. Lewis

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

(I can sympathize, tho', I keep my copies in a special bookshelf in a different room so as not to be tempted too often!)

*imagines the Narnia books behind glass with a fire axe mounted over them and the words "break glass in literary emergency" *

[inked]

Well, Rian, to be truly honest. There is an ax over the fireproof, glassed in, alarumed,and signed bookcase. The sign says " You take-a my books, me & da ax are gonna find youse and mess your face!"

[Nurvingiel]

I think a few parallels could be drawn between Harry Potter and Narnia, but what's the dualism thing?

Rian, do you have a link to C.S. Lewis' letter to a concerned mom that you alluded to earlier? It sounds like it would be funny.

[sun-star]

I think there are parallels between Narnia and HP, but I'm not convinced by this idea that everyone who writes Christian fiction can be called an Inkling. Saying a writer is an Inkling doesn't mean anything - it's supposed to imply that they write like Lewis, but not all the Inklings wrote like Lewis. I prefer to think of such writers as just that, Christian writers.

I miss my Narnia books when I'm away from home... In addition to what everyone's said about The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (btw, isn't Dawn Treader a gorgeous name for a ship?), I love the part where Lucy asks Aslan about the beautiful story she read in the magican's book, and he says "I will be telling it to you for a thousand years", or something like that.

I've been reading Tennyson lately, and I like to think of Reepicheep as the Ulysses of the mouse world. What do you think?

... for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.

Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in the old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal-temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.



And to make a long post longer - can anyone tell me where the "son of Adam, daughter of Eve" phrase comes from? I won't ask how it can make sense for Narnians who don't actually have Adam and Eve but where did Lewis get it from?

[inked]

Course not all Christian writers are Inklings! Did anyone allege that? I think what I said was in the style of the Inklings or tradition of the Inklings or an Inkling born out of time. I could have said Chestertonian and it would have been partially true since Lewis had a very Chestertonian style! Shheeesh!

Reepicheep is an anti-Ulysses! He accomplishes willingly and in the proper mode what Ulysses did out of hubris. So you have an excellent connection there. I recall a great piece on another forum in this regard and I'll track down the reference for you.

"And to make a long post longer - can anyone tell me where the "son of Adam, daughter of Eve" phrase comes from? I won't ask how it can make sense for Narnians who don't actually have Adam and Eve but where did Lewis get it from?"

Genesis. And if you have read the Magician's Nephew, you should realize that Narnia was indeed endowed with its own Adam and Eve. But if you haven't read it, I don't want to spoil the story. So I'll just stop here for now.

[inked]

Sun-star,

Go to SF-fandom.com and check out the Mere Christianity thread, page 7, for a great post on Ulysses, Dante, Lewis and Tolkein. This exchange took place in late April/early May of this year. You can find it using the search function as Dante Ulysses. The post was by Giles and is in several parts. I'd love to hear your take on it. (Giles, are you listening in, Dude?)

Isn't it nice to have Entmoot and SF-Fandom available. Thanks to you all!

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by inked

Genesis. And if you have read the Magician's Nephew, you should realize that Narnia was indeed endowed with its own Adam and Eve. But if you haven't read it, I don't want to spoil the story. So I'll just stop here for now.

I don't mean the idea, just its usage as a way of referring to a human. I ask because I found it in Kipling the other day - roughly in the context "would you like it if someone called you 'daughter of Eve' all the time?". This obviously pre-dates Lewis, so I wondered where the address comes from.

I have read The Magician's Nephew, and I was just remarking that the Narnian Adam and Eve aren't called by those names. Really Mr Tumnus should ask Lucy if she's a 'daughter of Helen', IIRC

I'll see if I can find that post, thanks

[inked]

Sun-star,

Frank and Helen, transplanted Christian Londoners, are the Adam and Eve of Narnia. Since they are human they are son of Adam and daughter of Eve - a state to exalt and humble, IIRC Lewis' remark.

This form of address harks back to a time when such a referent would have been graciously courteous. Our current cultures have precious little grace or courtesy and it is therefore difficult for us to perceive it as honorific. In your case, the attribution of Knight or HMS (with rank) would be a rough parallel.

Lucy is in fact a human, a Terran, and a daughter of Eve and Adam. Since she does not result from the procreative union of Frank and Helen (but rather that of Mr. and Mrs. Pevensie!), she cannot be your (humorously intended, I am sure) suggestion. As to Mr. Tumnus, it would appear that the meaning of the term had become subject to the same forces in Narnia as in our world and that Adam and Eve, indeed mankind itself, had been lost in the murk of time, and reduced to the status of a myth. See Mr. Tumnus' library shelves.
Tumnus himself had not any direct knowledge of humans and was reliant on the provision of the term (and in this case the specificities of the prophecy) by the Witch (who was not human). This whole intorductory episode is high Comedy within the Tragedy that the Witch has made Narnia.

A background in the currents of theology rampant in Lewis' time (and the consequent ?development? in which we live) will enable your understanding of the humor. I point to the widely and fervently believed literary critical method debunked by archeology but proclaimed with a Stalinist alteration of Marxist fervor by "scholars", of course. Lewis had observed that the techniques championed by biblical "critics" had long been abandoned by literary critics! (See a collection of Essays known in America as Christian Reflections and in England as Fern Seeds and Elephants, if IRC!) The visual image of the learned work on Mr. Tumnus' shelf regarding Man: Fact or Myth (sorry if the title is wrong, I am away from my book at the moment) is so cognizant with Jesus: Man or Myth or any of hundreds of similar titles from Lewis' (and our) era that the comparison is inescapable (to the reflective educated mind, not necessarily children). This is known as social satire in literature as you undoubtedly know.

The general usage from Kipling shows that the term in this time frme ws quite easily understood. I gather from the sense of the passage that Kipling is deriding the use of honorifics in daily usage, spoofing the overcourteousness of the noveau riche or social climber though I have not the resources to track it. Could you provide a citation, perhaps? I am in my non-Entmoot life a physician, so some choose to call me "Doctor" under varying social conditions. Sometimes it is an honorific, sometimes a joke, sometimes appropriate, and sometimes (especially at nonmedical settings) a way of drawing attention to the addressor's status as being enhanced by my association (rather embarassing frankly in that mode). I think Kipling is tasking the latter perhaps. Or think of it as the Inklings in the confines of the B&B addressing one another seriously in all conversation by their professional titles.

Lewis' sparing use of the phrase is a proper usage and mode of address which establishes an true hierarchal relationship by the users.

[Rían]

as befits my title - Halfelven Queen of Rabbit Trails - this rabbit trail came to my mind:

Speaking of titles ...

I, like JRRT, am a big believer in fairy tales as truth-conveyers (the good ones, not the bad ones - yes, there are bad fairy tales, IMHO) and I read them to my kids (14, 9, 8) who absolutely LOVE them! When I first started with Andrew Lang's books (the red ft book, the green ft book, etc etc), I had to make a decision about whether to translate some of the archaic and formal titles/words that were used, and I decided it would be more enriching for the kids if I did NOT change them into modern usage. At first, the "thee"s and "makest" and things like that confused them; now, they roll right with it. One of the coolest customs I like is that of young people calling older people, even strangers, "father" or "mother". I explain to the kids that it's a sign of respect from a younger person towards an elder. They know what this means, because in our house, young people use titles towards older people (my friend is "Mrs. Smith" to them, not "Lisa", as she is to me, for example). Even the babysitters are "Miss Staci", not "Staci". I think this use of titles is SO important, and I'm SO glad my husband and I made the decision to do this! There's just something beautiful about a younger person treating an older one with respect, IMO.

[Rían]

ps - sunstar, how's uni?

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by inked

The general usage from Kipling shows that the term in this time frme ws quite easily understood. I gather from the sense of the passage that Kipling is deriding the use of honorifics in daily usage, spoofing the overcourteousness of the noveau riche or social climber though I have not the resources to track it. Could you provide a citation, perhaps?

If you really want one - it's from Puck of Pook's Hill. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but as I quoted before, Puck asks the children (in reference to their use of the term 'fairy') if they would like to be addressed as "sons of Adam and daughters of Eve", "human" or "mortal" all the time. One of the children replies, "No, that's how they talk in the Arabian Nights and stories like that". Which is really the simplest answer.

I was just kidding about Lucy, and I'm aware of the theological debates of Lewis' time; it was merely an idle question.

Originally Posted by Rian

ps - sunstar, how's uni?

It's OK, I suppose. Thanks for asking And I agree with you about titles and respect.

[inked]

Sun-star,

Thanks for the reference for Kipling.

Did you get a chance to check the Ulysses thingamabob?

[sun-star]

Yes, it was interesting. I notice though that the post was about Caspian as the anti-Ulysses, not Reepicheep (the reason I thought of him was for the line "it may be that the gulfs will wash us down" - I think Reepicheep says something very similar when they discuss round vs. flat worlds. I don't have my books with me, sorry if my memory's at fault). Thanks for the reference, it provided me with some useful thoughts.

A question for everyone: who's your favourite character in the Chronicles of Narnia?

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by sun-star

A question for everyone: who's your favourite character in the Chronicles of Narnia?

It's tie between Caspian and Eustace for me.

Btw, I love the part where Lewis says "his name is Eustace Clarence Scrubb. He almost deserved that name."

[Nurvingiel]

I believe the exact quote is "His name was Eustace Clarence Scrubb, and he almost deserved it." But that's probably my favourite line too!

[inked]

Aslan!

Aslan is not a tame lion. (Mr. Beaver, IIRC!)

[Nurvingiel]

"Aslan is not a tame lion. Good?
Of course he's good, but he's not safe." CSL/LWW

Now where did I get that from?

Okay everyone, who loves "The Horse and His Boy"? It's my favourite book! (Of the chronicles.)

[Rían]

I love The Horse ...! I like how it shows him feeling sorry for himself - reality! Prob. my second favorite right now, after silver chair. I find that my favorites vary, as I go thru life and its different stages. And I LOVE Hwin's line when she meets Aslan - something like "You may eat me if you like, Sir. I'd rather be eaten by you than fed by anyone else."

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by sun-star

Yes, it was interesting. I notice though that the post was about Caspian as the anti-Ulysses, not Reepicheep (the reason I thought of him was for the line "it may be that the gulfs will wash us down" - I think Reepicheep says something very similar when they discuss round vs. flat worlds. I don't have my books with me, sorry if my memory's at fault). Thanks for the reference, it provided me with some useful thoughts.

A question for everyone: who's your favourite character in the Chronicles of Narnia?

I would say that Caspian was Ulysses Narniansus, or Ulysses Made More Real--Ulysses as he should have been and wasn't. But then I'm biased to my own view. Delighted you found it useful.

Favorite character: Bulgy Bears...I relate to them somehow

[Rían]

My husband hadn't read the Narnia stories when I married him, and he graciously consented to read them aloud to me, and ended up enjoying them very much! You know how sometimes you just can't say a certain word? That's how it was with him with "bulgy bears" - he kept saying "bugly bears"! We would just bust up every time that word came up