Biblo-a cheater? - Page 2

webwizard333 · 05-05-2002, 07:24 PM

Just to point out, this debate was not intended as an Was it all right to cheat? debate, but rather, did he? I preosnally don't think he did, but it's too much fun playing devil's advocate . . .

Th ebaseball point is not valid. The pitcher can't force the batter to swing. I just checked, and Biblo speciafically told Gollum that it WAS a riddle. Now let's look at it from Gollum's point of view. He had been alone for too long of a time, forgetting hw social systems and such work. His companianship consisted of a ring (which may or amy not have a personality). Then here comes Biblo. They play a game with very questioable motives, and Gollum who has lost all of his sense of right and wrong. Biblo tells him that the pocket question is a riddle and that he MUST answer it or lose. Does that sound fair, or does it sound like cheating?

Bilbo Buns · 05-24-2002, 04:17 PM

I don't think Bilbo cheated. Personally, I think Gollum is stupid. He should of just eaten Bilbo if he was going to anyway, but the riddle game was an interesting part of the story and Bilbo couldn't have died. If Bilbo had cheated, I wouldn't blame him if he was trying to save his life. Who would ever have known anyway? But I think Bilbo was just thinking out loud, and Gollum thought it was a riddle.

Nienna Grey · 05-26-2002, 02:36 PM

I think Bilbo got a lucky break. Let's face it, wouldn't you do the same if you were him?

I know I would!

webwizard333 · 05-26-2002, 09:50 PM

I repeat, this is not about "Was it right?" or "In his position . . ." (I'm not trying to sound mean, I'm just tired and can't think of a better way to write this). All it is, "Did Bilbo cheat?". I've got a hunch that Nienna Grey thinks so.

Starr Polish · 05-28-2002, 12:23 AM

I don't think he really cheated. I have, sitting in front of me, the authorized version of the Hobbit from 1966, and the exact words are:

Bilbo, seeing what had happened and having nothing better to ask stuck to his question, "what have I got in my pocket?" he asked louder.
"S-s-s-s-s," hissed Gollum. "It must give us three guesseses, my preciouss, three guesseses."
"Very well, guess away!" said Bilbo.

Thus, he never specifies that it was meant to be Gollum. He just lets Gollum assume that it is a riddle. I can imagine him saying the last line with a sort of a laugh..mehehe.

Tar-Elendil · 05-28-2002, 11:14 AM

If what Bilbo did is classified as "unfair", then what Gollum did is many times worse. He woulda killed Bilbo and...err..ate em

In that kind of situation, one cant even say it was cheating, just saving his life.

SamwiseGamgeeOTS · 06-28-2002, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SamwiseGamgeeOTS
Ok. In Riddles in the dark, I don't think that "What have I got in my pocket?" is a riddle. Riddles are more wordy and complicated. Therefore I do not think that Bilbo should have won. (Not that I have anything against Biblo. He's a very nice hobbit.)

I originally posted this under Epic Moment.....oops! Sorry Webwizard333!

Khadrane · 07-25-2002, 02:01 PM

I have to say that Bilbo cheated. It was okay for him to cheat under these circumstances, but he he still cheated.

Radagast The Brown · 07-27-2002, 01:40 PM

I think that Khadrane is right. that's exactly what I anted to say... I guess I was late a bit.

anyway, I think he did cheat, but he had to do that.. for his life of course. so it was ok.

WiseWizard · 07-27-2002, 03:28 PM

Of course Bilbo cheated. It doesn't matter if he specified the question as a riddle to Gollum or not, he still took advantage of the fact that Gollum thought he was making a riddle, and so cheated. Sorry about the run-on sentence.

Willow Oran · 07-30-2002, 04:15 PM

Bilbo cheated, but gollum let him. Gollum knew that the question wasn't a fair riddle, he even said so, and yet he still accepted it and tried to answer. Personally, I think the question of whether or not Bilbo cheated is void. Both Bilbo and gollum were not playing entirely by the rules and they both knew it but they kept on playing anyhow and didn't call eachother on it.

Bregalad · 08-04-2002, 12:21 AM

I think the "what have I got in my pocket?" question is a cheat as far as riddles go. On Bilbo's behalf, he never meant to cheat. He says it by accident, when he is nervous he is fiddling around with his pockets, and feels the ring he just found. He had forgotten all about it.

Quote:

"What have I got in my pocket?" He said aloud. He was talking to himself, but Gollum thought it was a riddle, and he was frightfully upset.

Quote:

Bilbo, seeing what had happened and having nothing better to ask stuck to his question.

Now, a riddle question is a puzzle, with clues within the question that a clever person can figure out. What Bilbo asks is just an ordinary question, not really apropriate for the riddle game at all. However, when Gollum says Bilbo has to give him 3 guesses, he is giving consent to the question, and allowing it in play. Gollum even cheats by making his last guess "string or nothing at all" which is actually two guesses, bringing the total up to four. Gollum loses, despite his cheating, but if he didn't think the question fair, he shouldn't have allowed it, and demanded a real riddle. Instead, he allows the riddle, and then means to welsh on the deal, and eat Bilbo anyway. So I would say that the question isn't a riddle, but Gollum allows it anyway, and Gollum ends up being the big cheater.

Old toby's wicked weed · 04-21-2006, 07:03 PM

death, he cheated only, think me be truth here

Landroval · 05-19-2006, 02:29 PM

I agree with most posters:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prologue, FotR

The Authorities, it is true, differ whether this last question was a mere 'question' and not a 'riddle' according to the strict rules of the Game; but all agree that, after accepting it and trying to guess the answer, Gollum was bound by his promise.

05-05-2002, 07:24 PM	#21
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	Just to point out, this debate was not intended as an Was it all right to cheat? debate, but rather, did he? I preosnally don't think he did, but it's too much fun playing devil's advocate . . . Th ebaseball point is not valid. The pitcher can't force the batter to swing. I just checked, and Biblo speciafically told Gollum that it WAS a riddle. Now let's look at it from Gollum's point of view. He had been alone for too long of a time, forgetting hw social systems and such work. His companianship consisted of a ring (which may or amy not have a personality). Then here comes Biblo. They play a game with very questioable motives, and Gollum who has lost all of his sense of right and wrong. Biblo tells him that the pocket question is a riddle and that he MUST answer it or lose. Does that sound fair, or does it sound like cheating? __________________ Boo!

05-24-2002, 04:17 PM	#22
Bilbo Buns Sapling Join Date: May 2002 Location: Uh . . . I seem to be lost Posts: 9	I don't think Bilbo cheated. Personally, I think Gollum is stupid. He should of just eaten Bilbo if he was going to anyway, but the riddle game was an interesting part of the story and Bilbo couldn't have died. If Bilbo had cheated, I wouldn't blame him if he was trying to save his life. Who would ever have known anyway? But I think Bilbo was just thinking out loud, and Gollum thought it was a riddle. __________________ I like Lord Of Da Rings. ================================================== Frodo is in the process of dying!!! No, that's not right FRODO LIVES!!! ================================================== Ancient Chineses proverb, "Learn to breathe, it could prove useful!!!" ================================================== I once thought Yoda was just a crazed old prune. Then I saw Episode II! Go Yoda!!!

05-26-2002, 02:36 PM	#23
Nienna Grey Enting Join Date: May 2002 Location: England Posts: 62	I think Bilbo got a lucky break. Let's face it, wouldn't you do the same if you were him? I know I would! __________________ "Mornie Utúlië Believe and you will find your way"

05-26-2002, 09:50 PM	#24
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	I repeat, this is not about "Was it right?" or "In his position . . ." (I'm not trying to sound mean, I'm just tired and can't think of a better way to write this). All it is, "Did Bilbo cheat?". I've got a hunch that Nienna Grey thinks so. __________________ Boo!

05-28-2002, 12:23 AM	#25
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	I don't think he really cheated. I have, sitting in front of me, the authorized version of the Hobbit from 1966, and the exact words are: Bilbo, seeing what had happened and having nothing better to ask stuck to his question, "what have I got in my pocket?" he asked louder. "S-s-s-s-s," hissed Gollum. "It must give us three guesseses, my preciouss, three guesseses." "Very well, guess away!" said Bilbo. Thus, he never specifies that it was meant to be Gollum. He just lets Gollum assume that it is a riddle. I can imagine him saying the last line with a sort of a laugh..mehehe. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

05-28-2002, 11:14 AM	#26
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	If what Bilbo did is classified as "unfair", then what Gollum did is many times worse. He woulda killed Bilbo and...err..ate em In that kind of situation, one cant even say it was cheating, just saving his life. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

07-25-2002, 02:01 PM	#28
Khadrane Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth (I wish) Posts: 670	I have to say that Bilbo cheated. It was okay for him to cheat under these circumstances, but he he still cheated. __________________ Few know whither their road will take them till they come to its end. -Legolas FRODO LIVES! ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

07-27-2002, 01:40 PM	#29
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	I think that Khadrane is right. that's exactly what I anted to say... I guess I was late a bit. anyway, I think he did cheat, but he had to do that.. for his life of course. so it was ok. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

07-27-2002, 03:28 PM	#30
WiseWizard Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: the darkest region of Mirkwood (and trust me, it's really dark) Posts: 331	Of course Bilbo cheated. It doesn't matter if he specified the question as a riddle to Gollum or not, he still took advantage of the fact that Gollum thought he was making a riddle, and so cheated. Sorry about the run-on sentence. __________________ My motto: Heaven doesn't want me and hell's afraid I'll take over. ------------------------------------------------ "Upstage me and I'll crush your kneecaps!" ------------------------------------------------ "It's been a while since I've been 130." -Aaron Reichgott ------------------------------------------------ You know, the world's full of apathy...but I don't care. ------------------------------------------------ "I would've honked, but I might have hit you." -Janaki ------------------------------------------------ "If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have gone to college that year." -Lewis Black ------------------------------------------------ "I have one speed which varies according to my mood." -Kristy Pihl ------------------------------------------------ "When I get a fever, I can hear my mom's voice in my head. But she's alive, not dead, so it's not as exciting." -Anna Crandall ------------------------------------------------ "It doesn't matter what your body type is, as long as you're bloodthirsty." -Rachel Carlson ------------------------------------------------- "My mind is a whirling miasma." -Jeff E. ------------------------------------------------- "I think earth is the Alabama of the universe and we don't even know it." ------------------------------------------------- "You can't just apologize the laziness of my bunnies away." -Taylor S.B. ------------------------------------------------- I'm a sadistic massochist. I'm always happy.

07-30-2002, 04:15 PM	#31
Willow Oran Deus Ex Machina Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,951	Bilbo cheated, but gollum let him. Gollum knew that the question wasn't a fair riddle, he even said so, and yet he still accepted it and tried to answer. Personally, I think the question of whether or not Bilbo cheated is void. Both Bilbo and gollum were not playing entirely by the rules and they both knew it but they kept on playing anyhow and didn't call eachother on it. __________________ "5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE. -Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi

04-21-2006, 07:03 PM	#33
Old toby's wicked weed Enting Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: in the clean air Posts: 84	death, he cheated only, think me be truth here