Biblo-a cheater?

webwizard333 · 04-20-2002, 07:26 PM

I saw a thread about this same subject in another message board, and was interested in the Entmooters' opinions. The question was raised by somebody's younger sibling/child. It wen along the lines of-Biblo cheated in the riddle game?! This refers to Biblo not asking a riddle with his famous pocket question. My personal opinion is that Biblo was just thinking out loud and Gollum assumed it was a riddle and the whole game had been rather unfair for Biblo, so even though he did cheat, it's excusable. What are your thoughts?

Twilight · 04-20-2002, 08:27 PM

I think that he was just thinking out loud. He didn't think of using it as a riddle until he heard Gollum's responce. That put him in a hard spot because he couldn't really take it back because Gollum would accuse him of cheating. He was trapped because Gollum would accuse him of bheating either way. Going forward with it at least gave him more time.

Elf Girl · 04-20-2002, 08:45 PM

You speak for me also. Anyway, Gollum was going to cheat no matter what.

***Khamûl*** · 04-20-2002, 10:38 PM

I think that I read in one of the appendices or something, that according to the Loremasters of the High and Ancient Game of Riddling (or something like that), that they don't think that Bilbo's question was actually a riddle, that it was just a question. But, by Gollum trying to answer, that he accepted it as a valid riddle. I tend to agree. It wasn't really a riddle, but when Gollum tried to answer it, it became legitimate. So, imo, Bilbo didn't really cheat.

Jadera · 04-20-2002, 10:41 PM

I agree with the theory he wasn't cheating. He realized his mistake after Gollum tried to answer, and made it an opportunity.

Blackheart · 04-21-2002, 01:58 AM

I thought he was practiscing a great pick-up line...

"What have I got in my pocket?"

Yes. there's a discalimer form "the learned" that Gollum accepted the question as a riddle by demanding 3 guesses and then proceding to use them all up on HANDSES!, Knife, String or nothing!

Elf Girl · 04-21-2002, 07:12 AM

And he cheated on the last one.

***azalea*** · 04-21-2002, 09:12 AM

Gollum was never planning on holding up his part of the bargain anyway, but Bilbo didn't know that. I do think there was a bit of rationalization on Bilbo's part when Gollum took it as a real riddle. Bilbo COULD have just said, oh I was just thinking out loud, that's not my real riddle. I think since he couldn't come up w/ any more, he made it an opportunity, but also he didn't want Gollum to say, well what is it (which he eventually did anyway). The beginnings of the ring's hold, perhaps.

Spock · 04-21-2002, 10:08 AM

Khamûl has said it exactly correct.

Michelle The Fair · 04-21-2002, 10:12 PM

He WAS just thinking aloud. i agree with this theory.

webwizard333 · 04-22-2002, 09:43 PM

I feel like playing Devil's advocate now in this debate without disagreement.

(keep in mind I haven't read the Hobbit in awhile so don't blame me for mistaken memories but do point them out please)

Our beloved Bilo was in fact a cheater. Yes, it is quite clear he was simply thinking aloud, desperate for a riddle. He said the famous line and Gollum thought it was a riddle. I do believe that when Bilbo heard Gollum believing that it was a riddle he told Gollum it was a riddle. Even if he didn't press it on Gollum, he never said that it was not a riddle. He willingly allowed Gollum to not understand the nature of the question. Gollum, having been in solitude for too long a time, was not used to dealing with other living and intelligent and thoughtful and everything else the average goblin was not people. Biblo did take advantage of poor Gollum and cheated. The question was not whether or not Gollum would have cheated, but did Bilbo cheat? So, the wonderful father to Frodo was a cheater (though Ring influence could be held slightly accountable for this too).

webwizard333 · 04-22-2002, 09:43 PM

Now I feel bad about attacking Bilbo.

***Khamûl*** · 04-22-2002, 10:23 PM

Yet another point of view. Interesting. Perhaps Bilbo didn't explain the full meaning of the question to Gollum. He didn't tell Gollum that it was or was not a riddle after he asked the question. He just asked the question again and let Gollum draw his own conclusions. Since Bilbo didn't say that it was a riddle, let Gollum deceive himself into thinking it was a riddle, and let him try to answer it, thus making it a valid riddle, one could say that Bilbo cheated. I can see where you're coming from.

Now, read The Hobbit again to cleanse yourself of the attacks on Bilbo.

barrelrider110 · 04-23-2002, 01:15 PM

Young children only think in absolutes. So to a child, Bilbo cheated.

As adults, we consider the circumstances. By the time Bilbo asked the question, he had already asked several riddles, and particularly difficult ones at that. He had probably already given his best shot. Bilbo was under pressure to ask another, “Ask us a question, ask us!” Gollum demanded. Bilbo couldn’t think of another. He was becoming more fearful and dubious of Gollum by the minute. More than anything, Bilbo wanted to get the heck out of there.

Bilbo was only thinking aloud when he said “what have I got in my pocket.?"(Personally, I think it was the ring’s influence). Although Gollum protested, he accepted the question. Bilbo took advantage of that. He knew that the question was not a genuine riddle, and he feared that Gollum would use that fact to renege on the bargain.

So I guess Bilbo did bend the rules a bit. If he did cheat, we can forgive him.

***azalea*** · 04-23-2002, 01:37 PM

Yes, can you blame him? I certainly would use every advantage to avoid being eaten! Quite honestly, I don't think I would have held up my end of the bargain if Gollum had won! I would have used Sting to my fullest advantage. Plus, you're right, really at that point, Bilbo had won fair and square. He'd answered all of Gollum's riddles. But I think, as was stated, that by accepting the "riddle", Gollum made it a "fair" one.

Elf Girl · 04-23-2002, 01:55 PM

I agree. Gollum took it as a riddle, so riddle it was!

Spock · 04-26-2002, 12:52 PM

Bilbo did not cheat. He merely chose not to correct an impression of a spontaneous retort to a question as a question.
If you were underground, in the dark and about to be killed you might do worse.

Occasionally Jay · 04-26-2002, 06:12 PM

.....it's like baseball.

It doesn't MATTER if the pitcher threw the ball at a passing bird, or decided to see if how many times it could bounce on the ground....If you swing at it, it's a strike, not a foul.

..I actually used a sports metaphor. YUCK.

But, at any rate, Bilbo may have pitched badly, but Gollum swung.

Spock · 04-27-2002, 01:56 PM

EXACTLY! And Gollum swung.

Laredith · 05-05-2002, 05:48 PM

Gollum cheated anyway. And I agree with the ones who are saying that because Gollum accepted the question, that made the question a valid riddle.

04-20-2002, 07:26 PM	#1
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	Biblo-a cheater? I saw a thread about this same subject in another message board, and was interested in the Entmooters' opinions. The question was raised by somebody's younger sibling/child. It wen along the lines of-Biblo cheated in the riddle game?! This refers to Biblo not asking a riddle with his famous pocket question. My personal opinion is that Biblo was just thinking out loud and Gollum assumed it was a riddle and the whole game had been rather unfair for Biblo, so even though he did cheat, it's excusable. What are your thoughts? __________________ Boo!

04-20-2002, 08:27 PM	#2
Twilight Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wilmore, KY Posts: 269	I think that he was just thinking out loud. He didn't think of using it as a riddle until he heard Gollum's responce. That put him in a hard spot because he couldn't really take it back because Gollum would accuse him of cheating. He was trapped because Gollum would accuse him of bheating either way. Going forward with it at least gave him more time. __________________ Sometimes I wonder how many monkeys with typewritters it would take to reproduce what I just wrote.

04-20-2002, 08:45 PM	#3
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	You speak for me also. Anyway, Gollum was going to cheat no matter what. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

04-20-2002, 10:38 PM	#4
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	I think that I read in one of the appendices or something, that according to the Loremasters of the High and Ancient Game of Riddling (or something like that), that they don't think that Bilbo's question was actually a riddle, that it was just a question. But, by Gollum trying to answer, that he accepted it as a valid riddle. I tend to agree. It wasn't really a riddle, but when Gollum tried to answer it, it became legitimate. So, imo, Bilbo didn't really cheat. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

04-20-2002, 10:41 PM	#5
Jadera Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Somewhere out there Posts: 205	I agree with the theory he wasn't cheating. He realized his mistake after Gollum tried to answer, and made it an opportunity. __________________ Whaaaaaaaaaat?? ~Chivalry isn't dead, it just transferred to women~

04-21-2002, 01:58 AM	#6
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	I thought he was practiscing a great pick-up line... "What have I got in my pocket?" Yes. there's a discalimer form "the learned" that Gollum accepted the question as a riddle by demanding 3 guesses and then proceding to use them all up on HANDSES!, Knife, String or nothing! __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

04-21-2002, 07:12 AM	#7
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	And he cheated on the last one. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

04-21-2002, 09:12 AM	#8
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Gollum was never planning on holding up his part of the bargain anyway, but Bilbo didn't know that. I do think there was a bit of rationalization on Bilbo's part when Gollum took it as a real riddle. Bilbo COULD have just said, oh I was just thinking out loud, that's not my real riddle. I think since he couldn't come up w/ any more, he made it an opportunity, but also he didn't want Gollum to say, well what is it (which he eventually did anyway). The beginnings of the ring's hold, perhaps.

04-21-2002, 10:08 AM	#9
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Khamûl has said it exactly correct. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

04-21-2002, 10:12 PM	#10
Michelle The Fair Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chithaeglir (Misty Mountains) Posts: 86	He WAS just thinking aloud. i agree with this theory. __________________ "And so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. Gandalf the Grey "PIPPIN LIVES in MY HEART!!!!!!!'

04-22-2002, 09:43 PM	#11
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	I feel like playing Devil's advocate now in this debate without disagreement. (keep in mind I haven't read the Hobbit in awhile so don't blame me for mistaken memories but do point them out please) Our beloved Bilo was in fact a cheater. Yes, it is quite clear he was simply thinking aloud, desperate for a riddle. He said the famous line and Gollum thought it was a riddle. I do believe that when Bilbo heard Gollum believing that it was a riddle he told Gollum it was a riddle. Even if he didn't press it on Gollum, he never said that it was not a riddle. He willingly allowed Gollum to not understand the nature of the question. Gollum, having been in solitude for too long a time, was not used to dealing with other living and intelligent and thoughtful and everything else the average goblin was not people. Biblo did take advantage of poor Gollum and cheated. The question was not whether or not Gollum would have cheated, but did Bilbo cheat? So, the wonderful father to Frodo was a cheater (though Ring influence could be held slightly accountable for this too). __________________ Boo!

04-22-2002, 09:43 PM	#12
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	Now I feel bad about attacking Bilbo. __________________ Boo!

04-22-2002, 10:23 PM	#13
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	Yet another point of view. Interesting. Perhaps Bilbo didn't explain the full meaning of the question to Gollum. He didn't tell Gollum that it was or was not a riddle after he asked the question. He just asked the question again and let Gollum draw his own conclusions. Since Bilbo didn't say that it was a riddle, let Gollum deceive himself into thinking it was a riddle, and let him try to answer it, thus making it a valid riddle, one could say that Bilbo cheated. I can see where you're coming from. Now, read The Hobbit again to cleanse yourself of the attacks on Bilbo. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

04-23-2002, 01:15 PM	#14
barrelrider110 Peer of the realm of Sanguine Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ Posts: 798	Young children only think in absolutes. So to a child, Bilbo cheated. As adults, we consider the circumstances. By the time Bilbo asked the question, he had already asked several riddles, and particularly difficult ones at that. He had probably already given his best shot. Bilbo was under pressure to ask another, “Ask us a question, ask us!” Gollum demanded. Bilbo couldn’t think of another. He was becoming more fearful and dubious of Gollum by the minute. More than anything, Bilbo wanted to get the heck out of there. Bilbo was only thinking aloud when he said “what have I got in my pocket.?"(Personally, I think it was the ring’s influence). Although Gollum protested, he accepted the question. Bilbo took advantage of that. He knew that the question was not a genuine riddle, and he feared that Gollum would use that fact to renege on the bargain. So I guess Bilbo did bend the rules a bit. If he did cheat, we can forgive him. __________________ “"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling Last edited by barrelrider110 : 04-23-2002 at 01:19 PM.

04-23-2002, 01:37 PM	#15
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Yes, can you blame him? I certainly would use every advantage to avoid being eaten! Quite honestly, I don't think I would have held up my end of the bargain if Gollum had won! I would have used Sting to my fullest advantage. Plus, you're right, really at that point, Bilbo had won fair and square. He'd answered all of Gollum's riddles. But I think, as was stated, that by accepting the "riddle", Gollum made it a "fair" one.

04-23-2002, 01:55 PM	#16
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	I agree. Gollum took it as a riddle, so riddle it was! __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

04-26-2002, 12:52 PM	#17
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Bilbo did not cheat. He merely chose not to correct an impression of a spontaneous retort to a question as a question. If you were underground, in the dark and about to be killed you might do worse. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

04-26-2002, 06:12 PM	#18
Occasionally Jay Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 51	.....it's like baseball. It doesn't MATTER if the pitcher threw the ball at a passing bird, or decided to see if how many times it could bounce on the ground....If you swing at it, it's a strike, not a foul. ..I actually used a sports metaphor. YUCK. But, at any rate, Bilbo may have pitched badly, but Gollum swung. __________________ There's a light house in the middle of Prussia/ A white house in a, red square.. (He's a real hoopy Frodo who always knows where his towel is.)

04-27-2002, 01:56 PM	#19
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	EXACTLY! And Gollum swung. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

05-05-2002, 05:48 PM	#20
Laredith Enting Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gondor...no seriously, I do. Posts: 64	Gollum cheated anyway. And I agree with the ones who are saying that because Gollum accepted the question, that made the question a valid riddle. __________________ "You're rum little creatures, you humans." --Bree, from HHB ohh...and by the way... FRODO LIVES!!!