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03-24-2005, 03:20 PM
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#1 |
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Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 28
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Wow!
Ok... so I read the Hobbit, then all the LOTR books in order, fallowed by the Sil.
I'm re-reading the Hobbit and WOW is it different from the Sil and LOTR. The pace is quicker, the story seems... well ... lighter and bouncier. I know the Sil is mostly a point by point explanation but the comparisons seem so slight when you read the Hobbit right after the Sil. What do you think?  |
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03-26-2005, 03:20 PM
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Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Either walking across Rohan or riding through Fangorn forest
Posts: 2,000
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Quote:
 P.S. Haven't seen you around much...
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My status: Novice avatar maker. Elf lord Has no authority whatsoever Master of messing up
Thread killer  Ring smith  Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
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04-07-2005, 12:12 PM
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#3 |
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The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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it may be noted that until bree, lotr is of the same sort of style as hobbit, up to that point lotr was still a childrens sequel to hobbit, after that it gets heavier and heavier to become the epic romance that we now know it to be, and the sil was written as an adult stle, a form of mock-history, if you will, IMHO all this is anyhoo
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04-07-2005, 03:43 PM
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#4 | |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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Quote:
sorry, but balderdash! epic romanceepic romance ? Christ! all forgive and canonise PJ! (or esp his screenwriters - they now suddenly deserve medals!) not sure i really can agree with the descrip of the Sil either as regards original post by Lick the envelope, yeah your completely right, as i'd point out to Nurvingiel ref: the hobbit /bad character thread (in fairness Nurvingiel i have managed to go back over this post and try an cut out all or most of typo's!) LCOU: i'm thinking of submitting a new thread idea to the moot and that'd definetely go in there! to be fair i'm kinda assuming its just an off the cuff post though? also: quote: it may be noted that until bree, lotr is of the same sort of style as hobbit, disagree with this as well although can see some minor justification in what you'e saying, but no, the worlds are effectively the same yet worlds apart (if y'know what i mean?) even before Bree - its just more hobbit-centric and (for sure) lighter: i'd always thought in revision JRRT was attemtping to bridge the two books at this stage to a degree (hobbit and fellowship) best Butterbeer  |
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04-07-2005, 03:46 PM
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#5 |
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The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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tolkien himself described the LotR as a more ancient form of story than a mere novel, and in a letter IIRC he names it epic romance, i merely paraphrase the words of the great
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04-07-2005, 03:53 PM
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#6 | |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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Quote:
wow! you wanna run with this?? for sure? you really going on record as LOTR as an epic romance? Never mind some obscure, potentially (probably) out of context JRRT quote: you wanna label the LOTR as an epic romance ? (apart from the multiverse of everything else here we're talking 2005 here and what 'epic romance' means to us here and now: you wanna compare LOTR to this?) if i didn't strongly suspect you had a good brain behind that mad-eyed avatar LCOU, i'd call you Kerrr-razy! (But i won't!  ) best, BB |
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04-07-2005, 03:55 PM
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#7 |
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The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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search on the 'moot, there have been threads on this before,
Nolendil, i believe, is the finder of the appropriate quote, and reference but he hasn't posted for a while BTW, i am slightly mad anyway |
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04-07-2005, 04:06 PM
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#8 | |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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Quote:
Quote: ".. am slightly mad anyway .." well aren't we all? Are you saying you do not know in what context JRRT use this "epic romance" term? Are we relying on the mysteriously absent (probably riding the high plains with poncho, wide brimmed hat and six-shooter with a slightly evil charismatic death-stare expression?) Nolendil for this pearl? sorry mate  can't be bothered searchin' moot fer it!still think (c,mon admit it!) yer post was off the cuff (thats me most of the time to be fair!) : if it aint though then i reckon's me ols scrumpy jack thts you a bewin' 'alf a tankard reet o'th sunrise me'sunshine! |
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04-07-2005, 04:09 PM
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#9 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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[QUOTE=Butterbeer]Quote: ".. am slightly mad anyway .."
well aren't we all? Are you saying you do not know in what context JRRT use this "epic romance" term? Are we relying on the mysteriously absent (probably riding the high plains with poncho, wide brimmed hat and six-shooter with a slightly evil charismatic death-stare expression?) Nolendil for this pearl? sorry mate can't be bothered searchin' moot fer it!still think (c,mon admit it!) yer post was off the cuff (thats me most of the time to be fair!) : if it aint though then i reckon's me ols scrumpy jack thts you a bewin' 'alf a tankard reet o'th sunrise me'sunshine! can't be bothered re-writing that attempt at 'scrumpy talk', so apols if cr*p |
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04-08-2005, 08:14 PM
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#10 |
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Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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I think JRRT uses that term in both his excellent essay, "On Fairy-Stories", and in his letters. I'll post a ref when I can find it. A romance, the way he uses it, is an adventure story, full of beauty and tragedy and love and grief and hope and strife and courage and overcoming.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun!  Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?*"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-15-2005, 10:02 AM
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#11 | |
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Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I've been told it's all in my head
Posts: 916
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Quote:
Yeah, he did write about that and certainly felt that way, but there was deeper connotations concerning 'writing a story of legend'...
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said  Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt!
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06-15-2005, 02:52 PM
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#12 |
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
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He was using "romance" in the medieval sense, and "epic" in the classical sense; neither should be thought of as meaning what we would use them for today, to apply to Hollywood films and trashy literature.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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06-15-2005, 04:55 PM
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#13 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Most assuredly a romance, see CS Lewis' THE DISCARDED IMAGE and PREFACE TO PARADISE LOST for delightful discussions of the technique in poetry and without. Lewis categorized his Space Trilogy as the same.
But Lewis and Tolkien would have been talking in what have become technical terms to us and vernacular to them. Yes, Butterbeer, BEOWULF was a romance!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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06-20-2005, 08:38 AM
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#14 |
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
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Also relevant is the Preface to Lewis' The Pilgrim's Regress, where he discusses different definitions of romanticism and romantic, and Tolkien's letters 180, 131, 109 and 71 (for a starting point). The classification of LOTR as romance raises some interesting questions - for example, the reason why the central plot line is the reverse of a typical romance quest.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. Last edited by sun-star : 06-20-2005 at 02:00 PM. |
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06-28-2005, 05:18 PM
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#15 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Mi-Lady, dost thou meanst the destruction of an object as opposed to its acquisition? How then is the acquisition of the destruction less tangible than the grasping of a physical object? Are not both quested, romantic, and epic? Obverse and reverse of coinage, as 'twere?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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06-29-2005, 12:56 PM
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#16 | |
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Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I've been told it's all in my head
Posts: 916
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Quote:
I only understand half of what you say you Brainiac! I use to think I had half a brain....now I know! LOL 
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt!
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06-29-2005, 02:39 PM
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#17 | |
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
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Quote:
But a quest undertaken to destroy, to rid oneself of a burden and a menace, is IMO a different thing to a quest undertaken in the hope of possession - whether of a physical object of desire or a spiritual one (e.g. self-knowledge). So maybe LOTR subverts the romance quest to question the value of possessing, to ask what should properly be objects of desire, and how self-knowledge is really gained. Or maybe not. Whatever.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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06-30-2005, 12:08 AM
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#18 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Sun-star,
It's all that head banging getting to you, isn't it?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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06-30-2005, 03:30 AM
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#19 |
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
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Yeah
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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09-21-2005, 04:42 AM
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#20 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
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Yee-haww!
I get a six-shooter! Well gosh darnit!
... ... Is it sad to search a forum for your own name? ... Pooey, I don't care. Well, I'm not sure I've achieved enigmatic coyboy status in my absense, but I sure have lost a lot of Tolkien lore I used to store in this noggin'. You guys had me searching my garage for a copy of The Tolkien Letters, but I can't find it. I did find a lot of cob-webs, and The Complete Works of Plato with the cover scratched off from a long-gone puddle we used to have because of a leak in the roof. But that's neither here nor there. I can't quote it cause I don't have it, but it's in the Tolkien Letters. If you have a copy, go to the index in the back, look up "Lord of the Rings", and one of the sublistings you'll find will be "an heroic romance"--that will tell you what page it is on. Yes, the phrase is "heroic romance", not "epic romance". Tolkien used it in response to someone referring to The Lord of the Rings as a novel, (or perhaps as novels). He said that it wasn't a novel, but "an heroic romance," which he said was "a much older style of literature." Anybody who has Letters can type the quote. ... ... You know before I started playing Lord of the Rings as a child, I was a cowboy fan. Had the boots and the sherrif badge and everything. Geeks are forever fated to live in a child's world. *annoying guitar twanging ensues* Well I guess my work here is done. I've half-arsed it, failed, and looked darn proud doing it. It's time I took my leave of ya. Good-bye, and remember--whenever you need me, just say my name, and out of the sunset I'll come ridin', several months later, without nothin' to do and everythin' to say 'bout it. Mm-hmm, you bet, cause I've been on journey from the wastes of Google, and I'm searching for my achin' name. It's a bleedin' heart it is, mm-hmm, and a foggy soul. Can't see through my foggy soul! Yee-haw! *galloping and swirling dust* ... ... *disembodied voice echoing* Don't be afraid, ol' Beer's Butter, I will always be with you. Just type my name (even without the alt key), and Ill come a gallopin'. *self important fade out as credits scroll up*
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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