Problems with education

[afro-elf]

Eventhough I teach outside of the US, I see (IMO) some drastic problems with US ( my "home" country) education. If you were the god emperor of education in your country and could ONLY change 3 things what would it be?

1) there would only be grades of A 90-100 excellent, B 80-89 good, and C 70-79 average. If you can't do average work you should not pass the class.

2) a national standard

3) a VAST increase in critical thinking, hard sciences etc and a VAST decrease in "soft" teaching.

[Andúril]

1) Introduce the subject of Critical Thinking into the curriculum.

2) Elevate required grades for passing - although perhaps this would cause the drop-out rate to increase.

Thinking of a third....although it seems that we are thinking along the same lines.

[Comic Book Guy]

What about the Abolishing of Religous Education as a subject?

[Andúril]

I don't see anything wrong with Religious Education, as long as it is not proselytizing or indoctrination.

[BeardofPants]

1) Do away with the teachers who are on a "power trip."

2) Introduce a practical based qualification for those who don't excel in academia.

3) Have compulsory training update seminars for the teachers - so they don't stagnate.

Dang. I can think of more. The NZ education system seriously sucks. So many people drop out of the system.

Regarding RE, it shouldn't be compulsory, and absolutely no proselytizing. However, I think it would be better if they had a "World issues" class or something, where they discussed philosophy, religion, ideology, and the motivations behind them. (Our social studies classes never covered anything this complicated.)

I don't agree with raising the grades that much though. All that would succeed in doing, is creating an elistist society. However, I DO think that the grades should be raised higher than they currently are in NZ (at high school level they are: A=65%, B=55%, C=45% - I think.) I would probably make the grading system universal, and more in line with university grading:

A+ = 100 - 90
A = 89 - 85
A- = 84 - 80
B+ = 79 - 75
B = 74 - 70
B- = 69 - 65
C+ = 64 - 60
C = 59 - 55
C- = 54 - 50.

What do you mean by "soft" subjects, A-E? If by that, you mean english, and it's other related subjects, then again, I have to disagree. I excelled more in english than maths and science at high school. It wasn't until university that my passion for science fired up, so to speak. And by selectively choosing some subjects over others (or downplaying, if you will) will only succeed in "training" for a certain type of individual. Society has a need of a broad spectrum of people. That has always been the case. Both biologically, AND socially.

[Ben]

That's NZ's grading policy? Wow, that's incredibly lenient.
In the US we have

97-100 A+
93-96 A
90-92 A-
87-89 B+
83-86 B
80-82 B-
77-79 C+
73-76 C
70-72 C-
65-69 D
64 and below: F

AE, what do you mean by soft teaching? Grade inflation, little discipline, or what.

Are you advocating the elimination of a failing grade? Is this because you think no one should fail? I don't quite understand that part.

There can't really be national standards, because different regions have different needs. The level of science is fine - I think science and math are overemphasized, at least in my school: "doubling up" in math your first year of high school is for academic challenge, while doubling up in English is for remedial students.

Standardized testing and "accountability" should be cut. In "big test" years, we end up spending the entire year prepping for the test, and don't get to learn much else. I imagine this was even more evident in the lower level classes. The tests bear little resemblance to our actual curriculum, and just waste classroom time. Standardized tests are useful for college admission purposes, but to use them as a prop for politicians to point to the "improvements" in education is insane.

I don't think much can be done about poor quality teachers. The pay just isn't good enough for top students to take positions at high schools or lower.

[BeardofPants]

97-100 A+
93-96 A
90-92 A-
87-89 B+
83-86 B
80-82 B-
77-79 C+
73-76 C
70-72 C-
65-69 D
64 and below: F

Really?! I kinda thought that the 50% pass rate was universal...

[Comic Book Guy]

Are the grading policies you both have given apply to all subjects?

Really?! I kinda thought that the 50% pass rate was universal

The general standard for a pass mark (C) the CCEA give in Northern Ireland is around 50%

97-100 A+
93-96 A
90-92 A-
87-89 B+
83-86 B
80-82 B-
77-79 C+
73-76 C
70-72 C-
65-69 D
64 and below: F

Out of curiousity, Afro-Elf, what subject do you teach?

[LuthienTinuviel]

wow, i can't believe that 50% is the average grade.
that's awesome, if i was going to school in another country, my bad grades here, would be shining stars in another place! maybe we should move....

[Comic Book Guy]

wow, i can't believe that 50% is the average grade.
that's awesome, if i was going to school in another country, my bad grades here, would be shining stars in another place! maybe we should move....

I think this is all to do with your exams being easier.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy


I think this is all to do with your exams being easier.

Yes, I've heard that the Irish Education system is notoriously hard. I'm not too sure how the NZ system compares globally, but the University of Auckland is one of the most sought after campuses (5th I believe) in the Southern Hemisphere.

[Lizra]

My experience on the parent end has made me feel that smaller class size is the best thing. Most young kids are such sponges, ready to soak it up. The ratio for my son entering first grade this year is 1 adult to 20 students. 1 to 10 would be better. I see lots of fancy buildings and extras that maybe could be sacrificed for more teachers.

[Comic Book Guy]

Yes, I've heard that the Irish Education system is notoriously hard.

It's very difficult, so I've heard.

1 to 10 would be better. I see lots of fancy buildings and extras that maybe could be sacrificed for more teachers.

I believe in the long run that wouldn't work.

[BeardofPants]

You're complaining about 1:20! Try 1:35-40!

[Lizra]

1 to 35 or 40!! That is a joke... I'd say time to home school if that's what I was up against! Are private schools popular? I wish there was a good private school in my small town, but it's too small! I can't complain too much, I've seen worse in the big city when my daughter was young.

CBG, Why don't you think that would help in the long run?

[Khamûl]

A major problem with education in Alabama is lack of funding. The people in Montgomery (the state government) don't know how to use the money they get and as a result, schools are under proration. Some people believe that the answer to the problem is a lottery. I disagree, but that's an entirely different can of worms. The county school system is charging football teams and bands and other groups about $1 per mile that they travel outside the county. That means that if we go on a 50 mile trip outside the county, that's $100 gone (there and back again). Not to mention that we still have to pay the bus driver. Our band is small, and I don't know if we have the funds to keep dishing out money like that. Anyway, that's just a rant that I have.

[LuthienTinuviel]

yea, your right, the only reason the exams are hard here, is because the teachers don't know how to tell us the right information for them.

EDIT: WAAAY TO HARSH

[afro-elf]

) Introduce a practical based qualification for those who don't excel in academia.

what do you mean my this? vocational training?


[

Have compulsory training update seminars for the teachers - so they don't stagnate.

I think teachers should be retested after a certain period of time

What do you mean by "soft" subjects, A-E?

I said soft "TEACHING" not subjects. A former colleague let people pass because they had "good" attendence. His test were of the kind were you could 40 questions and still pass. He wanted his students to "feel good" about themselves.

They don't know !@#$ but boy they feel good about themselves.
like afro-centric education.

Are you advocating the elimination of a failing grade?

HELL NO!

what i'm saying is that if a student can not do AVERAGE work they should fail the class. none of this d- , d. d+. c-, grades stuff.

There can't really be national standards, because different regions have different needs

I think that natioanl standards will the goal that every student needs to aim for.

Out of curiousity, Afro-Elf, what subject do you teach?

ESL

My experience on the parent end has made me feel that smaller class size is the best thing.

you are correct there ma'am

And no more grading on a curve - either the students know the information or they don't, even if that means everyone in the class fails.


The way schools are funded - let me see if I understand this correctly. If a school performs at a certain level of expectancy - if the students can test within a certain range - they get money to buy more books and teach better. But if the schools can't perform within that range, then they get no money for new books and are expected to increase their performance before they do get money? Um, aren't these the schools that need the money the most? The ones where the students are failing and getting left behind? If they couldn't learn with the old out-dated books before, how is that supposed to change? What the government is telling them, in their eyes, is that they aren't important enough for the best eduaction available to them, so why should they go out of their way to prove themselves?

[jerseydevil]

There are several things I would do.

First, eliminate the teachers union. If teachers want to be considered in a professional occupation like they keep saying - then they should not be in an union. Last year - there was a big strike here by teachers (it was all over CNN even) it was because the school district was going to have the teachers pay a portion of their health insurance. Most industries do require employees to pay a portion - and usually it's not very much. I can't remember how much the school district was asking them to cover - but I know that when it was released in the papers - the amount was laughable. Parents were up in arms that the union was preventing their students from getting an education. Also - these teachers - when their salaries were released - were making A LOT of money. (CNN diudn't report all the stuff obviously that we had information on)

Tenure is another that would be eliminated. Only in teaching are you guaranteed a job after so long - and then those teachers don't do jack once they get it. I've had very bad experiences with tenured teachers. One teacher in college just read our math book to us (Linear Algebra) in class. He couldn't even copy the problems out of the book onto the blackboard properly. There is just no incentive to teach once they get tenure.

There should be year round school - but extend the vacations. For one thing - teachers should work year round. They complain they don't make enough - but only work 9 months out of the year. Many teachers make $50,000+ in NJ. Also, if there wasn't the 3 months of summer - the vacation time can be spread out through the year. The beginning of the year wouldn't be used to go over all the stuff the student had learned the previously year - but forgot because of summer vacation. It would be a much more efficient use of the student's and teacher's time. It may actually enable schools to extend the number of overall vacation days during the course of the year because of the elimination of the review period that's required after summer vacation.

I would eliminate the "feel good and everyone succeeds" attitude that schools have developed.

I would eliminate the practice where teachers pass students to the next grade even though they have not learned the subject matter. Sort of the same as above.

Like Ben, I would eliminate standardized testing (at least in terms of - if you don't pass you don't graduate). It takes away from legitimate education. I also feel that if a majority of students don't pass the standardised test within a school - it reflects on the teacher and the school not on the students. No matter how many times a student takes the test - if they have a crappy teacher - they're not going to pass it. Also - if the standardised test result DO NOT match up to the scores on the students report card - what does that tell you? It could mean that the student may not have been feeling well on the ONE day that the test was given (I had pneumonia which we didn't know about when I took my entrance exams to high school), that the school or teacher were terrible and couldn't teach the basic requirements and as a result the student did terrible. If the student did exceptionally better on the test then it could mean that he was bored out of his mind in class and did better on the standardised test (I got straight A's in Spanish I - where the teacher taught grammar and actually forced us to speak it the entire class period, yet I almost didn't graduate because I was failing Spanish II - which was taught by a different teacher that handed out a list of 50 words on Monday and we had a test on Friday of the memorized words. I was bored out of my mind during Spanish II.) or that the teacher made the classes too difficult and the student was unable to pass the class.

I would require ALL teachers to have a license and get it renewed by taking classes and going to educational siminars every so many years.

I would enforce stricter dress codes.

I would eliminate the stupid zero tolerance crap. Discipline for sexual harrasment and violent behaviour should be applied WHEN appropriate and WITH an appropriate level of punishment. A first grader should NOT be suspended for making a paper gun and saying "bang bang you're dead", nor should a kindergartner be suspended for kissing a classmate. Adults and school officials have to start using their brains and stop relying on the courts and governments to solve every problem.

I would eliminate random drug testing and unreasonable searches of lockers. My school system has said it will not institute the random drug tests that recently were okayed by the supreme court. I'm very glad of that. I think it's an infringement on students rights and money is wasted by randomly testing students who may be doing something on their own time, but has no affect on their attitude or performance in school. It also makes students have a mistrust of school officials, who are there to teach not police.

I would encourage parents to get involved in the education of their children. If it can be forced - I would do it. Not enough parents (at least in Seymour Indiana) get involved in education.

I would encourage industries in the community to set up mentoring programs where engineers can spend several weeks and teach math, writers can teach english, etc. I would go to companies and encourage them to become more involved in the education of the students - stressing that these students ARE their FUTURE employees.

I would allow vouchers - whether PARENT chose to use them private schools, religious schools or public schools. It would allow poorer families to choose to send their children to schools they may not otherwise be able to afford. It would also force to make schools competitive. If a school can't teach it's students - parents should be able to take their children out and send them to a better school. Teachers and schools that can't teach - don't deserve to be in the business.

This is an experience I had dealing with a school...
I mentored at Seymour High School in Indiana - I was teaching the PowerBuilder Language, Object Oriented Programming and Databases. I went off to Oregon for a while and I came back to start mentoring again. The principal told me that a teacher had started teaching the students Visual Basic. She had never programmed before at all (she was a business teacher) - whereas it was my job and I had gone to school for it. He said I would be stepping on her toes if I offered my services to help. She was respected among the teachers and the students (being respected by the students was a joke - I personally knew her) - if I helped they would think she didn't know what she was doing. I offered to help teach web development. This was when I felt the Indiana school system is in really bad shape. The principal told me that the web was a fad and that students that are into computers aren't interested in going onto college or serious about learning - they only go into 2 year community colleges and they don't go very far. This is the same town where everyone fights to try getting a job at the Wal-Mart Distribution Center because no one is educated enough to encourage any other industries other than manufacturing to come in.

In Seymour, when you enter high school as a freshman, it's assumed you're not going to go to college. If you plan on going to college you have to decide then. The minimum course requirements to graduate from Seymour High School - fell far below the requirements of getting into college. In New Jersey is is assumed you're going to college and minimum requirements for high school reflect that. New Jersey spends more per capita than any other state. Because of the level of education in New Jersey - NJ also attracts many high tech firms, that requires an educated populace.

Just some of my ideas. Obviously many of these ideas are very controversal. They put the blame for the education system though on everyone - the students, the teachers, the schools, the government, the community. All these have a role to play in the quality of our schools.

I wanted to be a teacher - but it's not worth it. I'd rather mentor students. I feel I can do more that way than dealing with the politics of education and the egos of the teachers. I'm sure some people don't agree with all this - but my mother was heavily involved in our education and our schools. I wanted to be a teacher and had seriously considered it and maybe someday I will become a teacher.

New Jersey Education
West Windsor-Plainsboro Regional School District

Indiana Education
Seymour Area Schools

[Lizra]

I will try this for the fourth time.. My internet service disconnects me any time I try to reply more than a couple sentences. Argh!

I don't think your views are too controversial JD.

I gagged on the Health Insurance bit. We pay $300 per month, yet make less than $30,000 per year. I thought everyone was gouged like this. Yet we must pay $500 deductible PER FAMILY MEMBER! before benefits kick in. (I always don shield maiden gear before calling blue cross)

I always thought grading on a curve was bizarre. I could get A's without doing anything. This was a bad thing!

Soft teachers ruin things. I remember cutting half my senior year, yet graduating on senior honor role! Soft teachers gave me A's and B's cause I was intelligent and didn't cause trouble. When I got to college, I'd lost my study habits (if I ever had them after all that curve grading!) and struggled. I eventually dropped out. The soft teachers enjoyed being "popular" with the students, but did us no favors.

Standardized testing annoys me. Here, they do it right after summer vaca, most kids have forgotton so much. We do have one year -round school in my county, but it's not ours. I wish it was! Every year they make my daughter take the standardized testing even tho she is a special education student. She fails it miseralbly, It's a waste of time, and demoralizing, but still we must do it!! The money would be better spent reducing class size.

I must admit that my small town school is much better than the Indpls public school system I had to deal with. The actual people (principal, teachers) are wonderful, hard working folk. I've had very positive experiences. It's those state type rules that get drawn up in the political process that gum up the works.

I would like to be an Art teacher in our public schools! I'd like nothing more than getting kids fired up about their artistic abilities!!