Why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell?

[CrazySquirrel]

Why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell?

I don't think that was discussed before... But really: Why?
The reasons Gandalf and Elrond gave seem strange to me - they waited for the return of the scouts they sent.
But the time they lost in Rivendell (from the end of October till the end of December- TWO MONTHS!!) allowed their enemies to consolidate. The nazgul had time to return to Mordor. Orcs came to Moria from the South, possibly from Mordor. Saruman had time to pick the fellowship's trail. And the winter had come, covering the Redhorn pass with snow.

Wasn't it a bad mistake to stay that long?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well as stated to make sure that all the Nazgûl had been partially destroyed and forced back to Mordor, and that would have taken a long time for the sons of Elrond went to Rhûn IIRC.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Well as stated to make sure that all the Nazgûl had been partially destroyed and forced back to Mordor, and that would have taken a long time for the sons of Elrond went to Rhûn IIRC.

I don't think they went to Rhun, only to Lorien.

And the nazgul horses (8 of the 9 ) were found dead not that far downstream. That meant that the nazgul had to walk to Mordor. And the fellowship, instead of setting out immediately, gave them the necessary time to get to Mordor with the news and to sent orcs to Moria and to Path Galen! Not to mention that SOMEONE flying obverhead - wasn't it a nazgul on a Fell beast? spotted them before the Redhorn pass and perhaps "organized' the storm!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes, I've just checked, they did not go to Rhûn. Yet some did go to Mirkwood, which would have taken some time.

Originally Posted by Gandalf

We can't start until we have found out about the Riders

So not all was certain.

[CrazySquirrel]

Oh, yes,, and by the end of December it was certain: the nazgul were safely in Mordor and horsed (and even "fellbeasted" ).

[Jon S.]

Because the food, drink, and entertainment was top-notch?

Actually, all of the above is true but the actual answer has already been quoted and can be summed up as, "Haste makes waste."

[Olmer]

CrazySquirrel

I don't think they went to Rhun, only to Lorien.

Seems to me that Elrond was reluctant to make any moves without consulting with his mother-in -law. And this was the major reason for delay.

An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent.
"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South")
And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth.

[durinsbane2244]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

The nazgul had time to return to Mordor.

well, the nazgul gettin back to mordor gets them out of the way of the fellowship for a bit, eh?

[The Wizard from Milan]

I agree that the Fellowship stayed too long in Rivendell, but that does not seem peculiar to Rivendell; they also spent one month in Lorien.
(And let's not foget Frodo reclutance in leaving Hobbinton)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Without some prophecy or precognition of when was the right time to get the ring to MT Doom, of which we have no indicia, the two month delay in Rivendell is inexplicable from a strategic or tactical standpoint. They should have set out beh9nd the scouts a soon as frodo was travelable. The scout if they run into any hazzard, should fall back on their out from Rivendell and would thus meet and warn the fellowship. Olmer's theory above is the only one that adds even small partial sense to the delay. he has now got me 10% suspecious of an Elvish plot.

[CrazySquirrel]

I agree with Olmer. The quest had to be OK'd by Galadriel before they set out.

It looks like the Ring came as a complete surprise to Erlond. Perhaps he first heard of the Ring being found from Gandalf, some days before Frodo was brought to Rivendell. The "old manipulator' never told about it to his colleagues (the other bearers of the Three) before! I imagine what Elrond said to Gandalf when he told him the news!

And then counsil went after counsil, and "the boys", Elladan and Elrohir, were sent to their granny to ask her opinion - perhaps even some days before Frodo appeared in Rivendell. And Galadriel said "bring it to me!' and started musing what would she do if she had the One... That would explain the second (one month) delay, in Lorien. She just couldn't bring herself to let the Ring out of her claws.

And don't you think they might have been looking for Gollum? Gandalf knew they needed him to complete the quest.

[Serenoli]

do you know, it actually seems quite plausible... I mean, the twin sons had "an errand that they would speak of to no one but their father", and that sounds like an elaborate family conspiracy, doesn't it?

btw, an odd thing I just remembered about the council... how come no one offered to be the Ring-bearer, and there was such a frightful long silence before Frodo offered? Surely the Ring would be exercising a lot of charm around itself... how come no one asked to carry the Ring? it just puzzles me...

[Forkbeard]

TO answer the thread title first, I think there are several reasons, some of which have been mentioned or hinted at:

a) the most important is knowledge. where is the enemy, not just the Nazgul, but Sauron himself, where are his forces, spies etc, but also Saruman: new orc activity in the various passes of the mountains since they can not go by way of the Gap. In my view, it is a good thing for Sauron to know that the ring is in Rivendell--that is the first step in leading him to think and believe that Elrond is gathering a force to go to Gondor or Lorien and use the Ring against him. I think this is vital.

b) the Ring-Bearer needs to be healthy. Attending a conference in the place where one is recuperating is one thing, walking from Rivendell to Mordor alone would be taxing enough, much less the other dangers one might face along the road. So waiting for his full recovery, or as full a recovery as possible is also important.

c) Informing Galadriel and getting her take: I don't think we need travel the "conspiracy" road. It is obvious that the Fellowship at some point (esp. since they can not go by way of the Gap) will need to use Lorien as a stopping spot and well may need more help than anticipated. On that side of the mountains, that's who it will be. So telling Galadriel of the counsel, the outcome, and the plan and getting the take of one who fought Morgoth in Valinor and Middle Earth for 3 ages just might be a good thing.

d) planning. Once the scouts are back, planning which route(s) to take, gathering supplies, planning for eventualities etc: none of which can truly be done until the scouts return.

e) weather. At least in the mountains from which I hail, Dec-Jan snow is a rare thing. Snow comes in the fall: late Oct (Sept on the highest peaks), and Nov., but generally is done by early Dec when it turns bitterly cold for Dec and Jan, snow returning again in Feb and March. Better to be trying to cross the mountains when cold, but not storming, than in the middle of a storm. Besides, the indication is that Caradhras would have tried to stop them no matter the season. Even among the dwarves, C was known as being cruel.

I don't find the spying particularly problematic for the late departure date. Neither Sauron nor Saruman is particularly stupid and used many sources of news, including palantiri. If they had left the day of the Counsel it would have been more difficult to spot spies than in winter when yes, the fellowship is exposed, but so are their trackers. So it wouldn't really matter when they left, the danger of being spied upon would be the same.

As for giving Sauron a chance for sending Orcs to Parth Galen and Moria, I find this argument unsupported in the texts of Lord of the Rings. As for Moria, there were orcs already there: the last battle of Balin and co. didn't take place the week before the Fellowship got there, but some YEARS before. I don't recall anything that says that Sauron sent more to Moria between Book I and Book II.

As for Parth Galen, same thing: Sauron already had garrisons up and down the East side of the river (or would if he were smart) between Lorien (on which he kept constant watch) and Mordor: He had reason to watch Lorien, Rohan, and Saruman and guard against any activity there. That the fellowship was seen floating down the river would have occurred the second they left Lorien regardless of time of year.

So that's my .50...sorry for being long winded.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

CrazySquirrel Seems to me that Elrond was reluctant to make any moves without consulting with his mother-in -law. And this was the major reason for delay.

An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent.
"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South")
And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth.

Do recall though that the Ettenmoors once formed a part of the kingdom of Angmar, did the WK (I call him Marvin) return north rather than go to Mordor after being unhorsed, and there have a troop or more at his beck and call ready to come down on Rivendell? How do you know unless you go look?

As for waiting for the scouts, rather than send the company out and let the scouts meet them: that's not a good idea. Let's say the company sets out and crosses the same pass that Bilbo and company did, and they find out the pass is held against them, then they have to go back and find another pass, and in the meantime the scouts who went that direction miss them....then they have no news, no one knows where they went, and there is no one looking for them to help along the way. Poor plan.

[CrazySquirrel]

Sauron DID send more orcs to Moria:
According to Haldir, a GREAT troop of orcs came to Moria:

We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago.

It was many DAYS ago, not many YEARS ago.

Balin went to Moria THIRTY (not "some") years ago, in 2989, and perished in 2994.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

It is rather rude to call other people's arguments "silly" and sneer at them when you haven't even bothered to go check the exact quotes!

Yes, Sauron DID send more "nassssty orcses" to Moria:
According to Haldir, a GREAT troop of orcs came to Moria:
It was many DAYS ago, not many YEARS ago.
And for your instruction, Balin went to Moria THIRTY (not "some") years ago, in 2989, and perished in 2994.

I didn't sneer. I will if you really wish me too.

According to Haldir, a great troop of orcs came to Moria. Did Haldir state they came from Sauron or from Dol Guldur or from the force that one of the Nazgul had opposite Rohan? No? Then claiming that Sauron did in fact send them is imposing your own opinion on the text isn't it? Does Haldir tell us that they came from Saruman? No? Thought not. Does Haldir tell us where the orcs have originated from? No? You mean they could have come from elsewhere than Sauron? HMMM, the mind boggles at this gap. (that was a tiny sneer, yes). I will further point out that EVEN IF the great troop of orcs was from Sauron, it doesn't follow that a) Sauron had not been sending such troops there for some time in preparation for his assaults on Lorien and b) that it was in any way related to the Fellowship--do remember that it was suggested that the delay of the company allowed such reinforcements to happen. There is no indication in what Tolkien actually wrote that the two events are in any way connected. And as I pointed out, there were already orcs and a balrog there, I doubt that this new troop changed the outcome of the Fellowship's journey through Moria in any way. Furthermore, since the events of the LoTR are taking place in 3018-19, would you mind terribly explaining to me how events taking place in 2989-2994 doesn't constitute "some years ago?" Certainly more precise and all that, but unless you're trying to say that all the orcs left after they killed Balin and company and just came back days before the company arrived and had barely set up camp, it would seem to me to indicate that the balrog and orcs were already there and the delay in departure of the Fellowship from Rivendell would not have changed their encounter with a balrog and orcs in Moria in any way had they departed sooner.

I'm sorry you took offense, offense was not meant, but rather a modicum of silliness.

FB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I agree with Olmer. The quest had to be OK'd by Galadriel before they set out.

It looks like the Ring came as a complete surprise to Erlond. Perhaps he first heard of the Ring being found from Gandalf, some days before Frodo was brought to Rivendell. The "old manipulator' never told about it to his colleagues (the other bearers of the Three) before! I imagine what Elrond said to Gandalf when he told him the news!

I doubt it. If Aragorn knew surely Elrond knew too. Where do you get the idea that Elrond was surprised by the Ring?

And then counsil went after counsil, and "the boys", Elladan and Elrohir, were sent to their granny to ask her opinion - perhaps even some days before Frodo appeared in Rivendell.

Considering they show up after dinner the night before, they would have to have gone quite a while before.

And Galadriel said "bring it to me!' and started musing what would she do if she had the One...

Then why not take a more direct route, surely to get it to Galadriel one needn't the Fellowship or even Frodo, and all the waiting.

That would explain the second (one month) delay, in Lorien. She just couldn't bring herself to let the Ring out of her claws.

I don't know, after a month of traveling on foot, cold food, escaping near death experiences, and losing a loved one on whom one depended, I think I wouldn't mind a month to mourn and then regain my strength for the next push myself. Perhaps you're made of sterner stuff.

FB

[Olmer]

Wow, Forkbeard, you really invested in some time out of your hectic schedule.

the most important is knowledge. where is the enemy, not just the Nazgul, but Sauron himself

I think they alredy knew or should know. It would be an unforgivable negligence to have your remote isolated kingdom without any intelligence information about any possible treats from potential enemies.

...that is the first step in leading him(Sauron) to think and believe that Elrond is gathering a force to go to Gondor or Lorien and use the Ring against him..I think this is vital.

Where did you get this information? Quote, please!
I think it is stupid to attract enemy’s forces without having any ability to withstand them.

...the Ring-Bearer needs to be healthy

As we know he never fully recovered even years after the quest. One month did not do any difference to Frodo. Why they did not appoint one of the elves, if they wanted a healthy ring -bearer? They don’t have men’s maladies, even their wounds heals faster than on anybody else. Glorfindel would be a good candidate for the trip to Mordor.

So telling Galadriel of the counsel, the outcome, and the plan and getting the take of one who fought Morgoth in Valinor and Middle Earth for 3 ages just might be a good thing.

Sure thing it is good to get a counsel from the person, who from the beginning had a quite different plan about the Ring, and who for so long time yearned it :“For many long years I had pondered what I might do should the Great Ring come into my hands.” (FOTR).On course they have to let her know that an object of her dreams soon will be delivered at her doorsteps.
So, since she planned to employ Gandalf in realization of her “design” from the beginning, I‘ll take that she requested Gandalf’s inclusion in Frodo’s company , as an overseer . Remember, Gandalf was not really eager to go on this quest, and warned Frodo, exalted at perspective to have Gandalf with him, “do not count on anything , yet”. But since "in this matter Elrond have too much to say", and he probably said: “Hey, old pal, you stirred up all this “stew” in the first place, so you have to deal with it: deliver it to The Golden Woods”, so Gandalf takes his place in the Fellowship.
Should also be noted that his plans did not go farther than Lorien." We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then …" (LOTR. Book II, chapt. III)... he is wisely getting silent about what will happen when, after Lorien, the group will split up, leaving Frodo with the Ring on his own.

I don't recall anything that says that Sauron sent more to Moria between Book I and Book II

On this point I agree.They were not Sauron’s orcs, but Saruman’s, he was sending an emissary to Moria, probably hoping to persuade them to join Isengard’s army.

...recall though that the Ettenmoors once formed a part of the kingdom of Angmar…did the WK return north rather than go to Mordor after being unhorsed

It had been a part …2045 years ago. Since that it became desolated, even enemies not dwell there. "No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legend tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end." What to look for? Even by the Witch -King?

Then why not take a more direct route, surely to get it to Galadriel one needn't the Fellowship or even Frodo, and all the waiting.

They TOOK the direct route. Remember, Gandalf planned to go straight through Moria in the first hand? All alternative routes had been suggested by others.

I think I wouldn't mind a month to mourn and then regain my strength for the next push myself.

O, yeah? Even knowing that your delay may cause the destruction of your country?
I understand that the hobbits could be so heedless, but such warriors as Boromir and Aragorn definitely understood the graveness of situation, and also Galadriel and Celeborn.

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Olmer

As we know he never fully recovered even years after the quest. One month did not do any difference to Frodo. Why they did not appoint one of the elves, if they wanted a healthy ring -bearer? They don’t have men’s maladies, even their wounds heals faster than on anybody else. Glorfindel would be a good candidate for the trip to Mordor.

IIRC, Glorfindel (or other elves of his stature) would be very visible to Sauron.
(similar to sending up a flare and saying "Here we are.")
I had the impression from the text (I think it was reference in Many Meetings by Gandalf talking to Frodo and later on in the Council of Elrond) that these types of elves had some type of inner glow/power that can be seen by those who can see.

Since the idea was to have the FOTR travel "under the radar" one would try to avoid bringing unnecessary attention if possible.

(Of course this questions why Gandalf and Legolas were included. I think it was probably determined that Gandalf's benefits would outway any negatives.

Perhaps he had a way of masking himself from observation by others, unless he used his special abilities. {as indicated when he lit the fire in the pass of Caradhras}

Legolas, although an elf, I think was a different type of elf than Glorfindel. Perhaps his type of elf did not attract the same type of attention from Sauron as Glorfindel.)

I am not sure about the 1 month stay in Lothlorien, other than to say that they lost track of time. (This is probably due to the effects of Lothlorien and more directly the Ring of Galadriel.)

The FOTR should have (in hindshight) traveled as soon as they were resupplied and able. (I would think about a weeks time {7 days} at most.)

p700

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Olmer

CrazySquirrel Seems to me that Elrond was reluctant to make any moves without consulting with his mother-in -law. And this was the major reason for delay.

An intention to make sure that the Fellowship won't have an obstructions on their way to Mordor is commendable, but downright stupid. As you already mentioned, it did no prevent them from getting spotted and delayed. Sending scouts in all direction and then pretending to wait till all of them will return with gathered information (especially I like an idea of sending scouts far north to Ettenmore, while the company's plan was to go south-south-east ) is nothing more than a cover up for one-and-only reason:Galadriel's formal consent.
"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country"... (FotR,"The Ring goes South")
And only when they finally came back with Galadriel's approbation, the quest had been set forth.

This is a brilliant insight, one I can't believe after all these years I never previously considered at all, thanks for sharing it.

Perhaps among the reasons Elrond felt the need to consult with Galadrial was his understanding that if the quest was successful, the destruction of the One Ring would mean the destruction also of Lothlorien when, as a result, the Three Rings lost their powers to preserve against decay. That being the case, he may have felt obligated, even if as a formality, to obtain Galadrial's consent to the mission.