Meryy and Pippin - their importance to the fellowship

Landroval · 01-29-2006, 03:30 PM

Who do you think was more important to the fellowship, considering their deeds: Merry or Pippin?

[I would have started an "organised" debate, between two teams, but it has been suggested to me to go on an open thread first - would anyone be interested in my idea?]

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-29-2006, 04:05 PM

I think there is a thread similar to this here. Is this similar to what you want.

Landroval · 01-29-2006, 05:41 PM

Not quite; (what I had in mind was an organised debate) what that thread apparently deals with is what reasons were there to have them in the fellowship in the first place; what I would propose to discuss is how they used their membership and who had the greater merit in the end, compared to one another. Just thought of giving it a try.

King of The Istari · 01-30-2006, 11:55 AM

I think they're both quite equal

without Merry Eowin wouldn't have had time to kill the Witch King and without Pippin Faramir would have been dead

I think Tolkien wrote it to have them reletivillly equal characters that both aid the quest If one of them wasn't there it is highly unlikely the ring would have been destroyed, (I think this goes for all the characters not just Merry and Pippin) without even one of the members of the fellowship the quest would have undoubtedly failed.

Gordis · 01-30-2006, 01:41 PM

I think Merry was far more important than Pip, and less harmful as well.

Merry by his well-timed backstab assured the victory at the Pelennor. With the Witch-King in command, I am afraid the battle would have turned ill for Gondor and Minas-Tirith would have been taken even before the arrival of Aragorn.
Well, Pippin saved Faramir, (as Merry saved Eowyn) but what are Faramir's and Eowyn's lives after all?

CrazySquirrel · 01-30-2006, 03:20 PM

Yes, I agree with Gordis, I vote for Merry!

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-30-2006, 04:30 PM

Yet it was Pippin who's quick thinking who made it possible for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to track them to Fangorn. Without that things may have gone very differently.

CrazySquirrel · 01-30-2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Yet it was Pippin who's quick thinking who made it possible for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to track them to Fangorn. Without that things may have gone very differently.

Yes, but Aragorn etc. never caught up with the hobbits, so tracking them that far was not important. And Gandalf would have found Aragorn anyway.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-30-2006, 04:49 PM

Yet perhaps not soon enough. If there was no evidence that the hobbits were alive then the hunters may have gone with Eomer to Edoras.
Also if Pippin had not cut his rope with the falen blade then Merry and Pippin may have been killed during the Rohirrim attack on the orcs.

CrazySquirrel · 01-30-2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Yet perhaps not soon enough. If there was no evidence that the hobbits were alive then the hunters may have gone with Eomer to Edoras.
Also if Pippin had not cut his rope with the falen blade then Merry and Pippin may have been killed during the Rohirrim attack on the orcs.

Yes, our Pippin scored some good points, who doubts.

But Merry was more important on the whole, because of the Pelennor.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-30-2006, 05:01 PM

I agree, what Merry did on the Pelennor was crucial, yet that would not have been accomplished without Pippin's deeds. Ultimatley both were needed for the quest to succeed.

EDIT: 4000th post!

CrazySquirrel · 01-30-2006, 05:04 PM

Wauuuu! 4000! Congratulations, TD!!!

Meriadoc Brandybuck · 02-22-2006, 11:24 PM

Merry (along with Eowyn) killed the Witch-King, which eventually led to the winning of the Pelennor Fields and was also one less obstacle for Frodo (not that it helped much).
Pippin saved Faramir and Beregond. He killed the troll-chief, which was about to bite Beregond's throat.

I'd say they're even.

CrazySquirrel · 02-23-2006, 06:21 AM

Yes, and what was the importance of Faramir and Beregond being alive or dead? Sure, good guys they were both, but I mean the major historical importance?

Without Merry, all the war would have been lost, Minas Tirith taken, both Faramir and Beregond killed in the assault.

Forfirith · 02-23-2006, 06:45 AM

Pippin has lead also Gandalf to Minas Tirith very quickly by looking in the Palantir, adn if Gandalf hadn't been there Minas Tirith would have probably fallen, Merry or not. And if Merry hadn't "killed" the With-King, don't you think that Gandalf could have broken him ?

Olmer · 02-23-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forfirith

And if Merry hadn't "killed" the With-King, don't you think that Gandalf could have broken him ?

Probably, he could. After all he was maia with a very powerful ring, literally, on the same level with Sauron. But since he was too hesitant (or unwilling

) "to remove Wikkie from the picture" at the gates of Minas-Tirith, and a little hobbit was brave enough to do maia's job, I'm siding with Crazy Squirrel and Gordis: Merry's deeds were more crucial for development of the new history of Middle -Earth.

Meriadoc Brandybuck · 02-25-2006, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Yes, and what was the importance of Faramir and Beregond being alive or dead? Sure, good guys they were both, but I mean the major historical importance?

Without Merry, all the war would have been lost, Minas Tirith taken, both Faramir and Beregond killed in the assault.

Faramir: Prince of Ithilien. Beregond:"...the Guard of Faramir, Prince of Ithilien, and you shall be its captain..."(RotK The Steward and the King) Historical major importance. (Admit it, anything Tolkien writes is historically important

)

I agree on the second part, though it's hard to say whether they would have died or not.

01-29-2006, 03:30 PM	#1
Landroval Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 421	Meryy and Pippin - their importance to the fellowship Who do you think was more important to the fellowship, considering their deeds: Merry or Pippin? [I would have started an "organised" debate, between two teams, but it has been suggested to me to go on an open thread first - would anyone be interested in my idea?]

01-29-2006, 04:05 PM	#2
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	I think there is a thread similar to this here. Is this similar to what you want. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

01-30-2006, 11:55 AM	#4
King of The Istari Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Some where quite interesting with psychedelic trees Posts: 124	I think they're both quite equal without Merry Eowin wouldn't have had time to kill the Witch King and without Pippin Faramir would have been dead I think Tolkien wrote it to have them reletivillly equal characters that both aid the quest If one of them wasn't there it is highly unlikely the ring would have been destroyed, (I think this goes for all the characters not just Merry and Pippin) without even one of the members of the fellowship the quest would have undoubtedly failed. __________________ So do all who see such times, but that is not for us to decide, all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us Gandalf And what happened to the rest of your party, killed, eaten, gone home? Beorn, The Hobbit Dark and difficult Times lie ahead Harry, soon we must all face a choice, a choice between what is right and what is easy! Dumbledore Neo Are you listening to Me? Or are you too busy looking at the Woman in the Red Dress? Morpheus, The Matrix

01-30-2006, 04:30 PM	#7
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Yet it was Pippin who's quick thinking who made it possible for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to track them to Fangorn. Without that things may have gone very differently. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

01-30-2006, 04:49 PM	#9
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Yet perhaps not soon enough. If there was no evidence that the hobbits were alive then the hunters may have gone with Eomer to Edoras. Also if Pippin had not cut his rope with the falen blade then Merry and Pippin may have been killed during the Rohirrim attack on the orcs. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

01-29-2006, 05:41 PM	#3
Landroval Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 421	Not quite; (what I had in mind was an organised debate) what that thread apparently deals with is what reasons were there to have them in the fellowship in the first place; what I would propose to discuss is how they used their membership and who had the greater merit in the end, compared to one another. Just thought of giving it a try.

01-30-2006, 01:41 PM	#5
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	I think Merry was far more important than Pip, and less harmful as well. Merry by his well-timed backstab assured the victory at the Pelennor. With the Witch-King in command, I am afraid the battle would have turned ill for Gondor and Minas-Tirith would have been taken even before the arrival of Aragorn. Well, Pippin saved Faramir, (as Merry saved Eowyn) but what are Faramir's and Eowyn's lives after all?

01-30-2006, 03:20 PM	#6
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	Yes, I agree with Gordis, I vote for Merry!

01-30-2006, 05:01 PM	#11
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	I agree, what Merry did on the Pelennor was crucial, yet that would not have been accomplished without Pippin's deeds. Ultimatley both were needed for the quest to succeed. EDIT: 4000th post! __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

01-30-2006, 05:04 PM	#12
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	Wauuuu! 4000! Congratulations, TD!!!

02-22-2006, 11:24 PM	#13
Meriadoc Brandybuck Magnificent Master of Buckland Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Buckland, U.S.A. Posts: 1,138	Merry (along with Eowyn) killed the Witch-King, which eventually led to the winning of the Pelennor Fields and was also one less obstacle for Frodo (not that it helped much). Pippin saved Faramir and Beregond. He killed the troll-chief, which was about to bite Beregond's throat. I'd say they're even. __________________ But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say to much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place. -Meriadoc Brandybuck Is there anything I can do that wouldn't inconvenience me?.-Adrian Monk Hogan: What's a definate factor that we can count on? Newkirk: We don't know what we're doing. Do you wanna split a pineapple? -Shawn Spencer

02-23-2006, 06:21 AM	#14
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	Yes, and what was the importance of Faramir and Beregond being alive or dead? Sure, good guys they were both, but I mean the major historical importance? Without Merry, all the war would have been lost, Minas Tirith taken, both Faramir and Beregond killed in the assault.

02-23-2006, 06:45 AM	#15
Forfirith Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Brussels Posts: 17	Pippin has lead also Gandalf to Minas Tirith very quickly by looking in the Palantir, adn if Gandalf hadn't been there Minas Tirith would have probably fallen, Merry or not. And if Merry hadn't "killed" the With-King, don't you think that Gandalf could have broken him ? __________________ Forfirith Love LOTR