Tolkien's Changing Concept of the Nazgul and the Istari

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

... I think the readers fully expected them to fight, and to kill each other, like with the Barlog...

I wonder though...

Was a Nazgul, even their Chief, as great as a Balrog? And wasn't Gandalf the White now more powerful than Gandalf the Grey had been?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I wonder though...

Was a Nazgul, even their Chief, as great as a Balrog? And wasn't Gandalf the White now more powerful than Gandalf the Grey had been?

I think I know the answer to this question. Unfortunately, the answer lies not in the text of the LOTR, but in the drafts for the story, published in HOME 6-8. Here is the piece I have just posted in the "Death of Ainur" thread in ME Forum:

Tolkien had an earlier conception of the Witch King, where his nature and identity were no mystery. In LOTR drafts he was called "the Wizard King" and was originally the most powerful WIZARD of the same order as Gandalf.

"Gandalf has insufficient magic to cope with Black Riders unaided, whose king is a wizard" The Treason of Isengard p. 9

War between Ond and Wizard King....Tarkil's fathers had been driven out by the wizard that is now Chief of the Nine" The Treason of Isengard p.116

"Then my heart failed me for a moment; for the Chief of the Nine was of old the greatest of all the wizards of Men, and I have no power to withstand the Nine Riders when he leads them" The Treason of Isengard p. 132.

"Denetor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgul. Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the Wizard King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order...from Numenor. 'So far I have saved myself from him only by flight'...""The War of the Ring" p.326.

Interesting that the idea that the 9 Rings were given to MEN was a very early conception:

"But all the Nine Rings of Men have gone back to Sauron, and borne with them their possessors, kings, warriors, and wizards of old, who became Ring-wraiths and served the maker and were his most terrible servants" The Return of the Shadow, p.260.

On the contrary, the idea that Wizards were Maiar who were sent to ME from Valinor in the THIRD Age was a late idea, from the time when "The Istari" in the Unfinished Tales were written (after the main text of the LORT and before the Appendices).

Of course, when Tolkien made up his mind about the nature of Wizards, and decided they came to ME around TA 1000, it became impossible for the WK to be one of them, because, how then "the 9 rings were given to men?" How could a Maia become a wraith?

So, the "Wizard King" was changed to the "Witch-King" throughout the text, and a few sentences when Gandalf reveals his nature (see quotes above) were removed.
But that was all. Nothing was changed in the scene of the WK's death - so his body disappears much like Saruman's (and understandably so).

Everyone reading LOTR gets a clear impression that Gandalf fears the WK, because he is overmatched. And it made sense in the earlier conception, because the Wizard King was the more powerful WIZARD of the two, or had similar power and strength as Gandalf the White. Also the WK still remains the strongest BY FAR than the other nazgul (though now the reason for it is gone).

That is how the Witch-King lost his identity. He is still called "King and Sorcerer of old", but Tolkien never came up with a new story for him, that had to explain why he was so very powerful.

In a way it is now a plothole of the LOTR.

[Valandil]

Interesting... and I don't have those HoME books. Would you mind if I copy that into a new thread?

[Gordis]

By all means, Val, if you feel it doesn't really belong to the chapter discussion.

There are several LOTR plotholes caused by the perpetual development of Tolkien's conceptions.

HOME Books give answers to many debatable things in the LOTR - for example Glorfindel's prophecy and whether it applied to Gandalf or not. Also, perhaps to the Gothmog question.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

In TTT Aragorn mentions that Gandalf the White was indeed more powerful than all of the nine.

Originally Posted by Aragorn

And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed though the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads."

Also I agree with Val. The Witch King may be mighty, but he is only a wraith and was formerly a man. The Balrog was a Maia, as Gandalf is. Surely Gandalf is more powerful.

[Gordis]

Aragorn tries to be confident, but old Gandalf is not so sure of himself:

‘Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dûr the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,’ said Gandalf. ‘King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.’
‘Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,’ said Denethor. ‘For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?’
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. ‘It might be so,’ Gandalf answered softly. ‘But our trial of strength is not yet come. ROTK

And then again look how this part has been toned down in comparison with the draft.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Also I agree with Val. The Witch King may be mighty, but he is only a wraith and was formerly a man. The Balrog was a Maia, as Gandalf is. Surely Gandalf is more powerful.

As LOTR stands now, that is undeniably right.
But the first-time reader, who has not read the Appendices before the story and has never heard of the Maiar, reading the above, feels apprehensive for Gandalf. And, may be, that was the author's intention.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Keep in mind that the the 5 Maiar incarnated into the Istari were intentionally done so in a maaner that limted somewhat the power they could bring into their incanated form. Gandalf has some digiculty even remebering mcuh of his existance prior to being made an Istari.

[Valandil]

I just changed the title of this thread to cover Tolkien's changing concept of the Nazgul (severally) AND the Istari.

Since I don't have those HoME books in question, someone please tell me: Was Saruman in the story in that earlier draft where Gandalf and the Nazgul had a common origin as Wizards of Numenor? If not - was the "Wizard-King" sort of divided into two separate people - the Witch-King and Saruman?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I just changed the title of this thread to cover Tolkien's changing concept of the Nazgul (severally) AND the Istari.

Since I don't have those HoME books in question, someone please tell me: Was Saruman in the story in that earlier draft where Gandalf and the Nazgul had a common origin as Wizards of Numenor? If not - was the "Wizard-King" sort of divided into two separate people - the Witch-King and Saruman?

Thanks for changing the title, Val. Though, Tolkien never changed his concept of all the Nazgul, but only of the Wizard King, their Lord. The rest were never accounted wizards. That's why in the LOTR the Witch-King is still the most powerful BY FAR of the Nine Nazgul, though now the explanation for it is gone.

Initially, Gandalf was late to come to the Shire because he was assailed at the Tower Hills by the Nine Nazgul who sat motionless on their horses guarding him. The reminder of that very early story is Frodo's dream of the tower and the smell of the Sea in LOTR:

Eventually he fell into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later.
Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew that it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far-off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were no trees after all. He was on a dark heath, and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the Sea. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder.

Soon Tolkien abandoned this idea, and then Saruman appeared in the story ("New plot" - Aug. 1940) - as a Wizard to whom Gandalf went for help, "as the 9 Riders (and especially their king) were too much for him alone". Saruman lived on the borders of Rohan at Angrobel. Saruman betrayed Gandalf and handed him over to a giant Fangorn (Treebeard) who imprisoned him. (HOME 7, p.71)

So, Saruman always existed separate from the Wizard King, the mightiest of the wizards, who turned to the Enemy very long ago.

First the wizards were Men of a "noble profession" wielding sorcery and having a very long life. Gandalf and the Wizard King were from Numenor, as for the others, it was not said that they were Numenoreans, though perhaps ALL the wizards were supposed to come from there. See this quote from the LOTR ( also present in early drafts):

'Who is Saruman?' asked Pippin. 'Do you know anything about his history?' 'Saruman is a Wizard,' answered Treebeard. 'More than that I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never can tell. Saruman was reckoned great among them

At first the Wizards were supposed to be rather numerous and common - almost like special "folk".
See this part of the LOTR prologue:

And certainly it was from Bree that the art of smoking the genuine weed spread in the recent centuries among Dwarves and such other folk, Rangers, Wizards, or wanderers, as still passed to and fro through that ancient road-meeting.

Compare it with the quote from the Hobbit:

Indeed Bilbo found he had lost more than spoons – he had lost his reputation. It is true that for ever after he remained an elf-friend, and had the honour of dwarves, wizards, and all such folk as ever passed that way; but he was no longer quite respectable.

But then, in the first draft of Saruman's talk with Gandalf in the drowned Isengard, Saruman says:

'Later! Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dûr itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now.

Here the FIVE wizards appeared out of nowhere and remained firmly in the story.

Four were identified, only one missing:
Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White, Radagast the Brown + initially the Wizard King. I suppose his colour was Black, as the draft sentence: "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still" might have initially referred to him.

[durinsbane2244]

personally, i think that Gandalf was more powerful than the Witch King.
contrary to the image of fearing him we recieve from the films, or Tolkien's drafts, in the final story, Gandalf says to Gimli that he[Gimli] could not meet anyone more powerful than him[Gandalf] once he was white, unless you were taken to the feet of Sauron alive.

this, coupled with the point that while Grey, Gandalf could defeat a fallen Maia, he could make short work of a fallen MAN once he is White.

it is my belief that the only reason Gandalf did not confront the Witch King is because Pippin came to him to save Faramir, so the chance was stolen from him and the prophecy was fulfilled, not because he fled. he also says something along the lines of him being able to save theoden if he hadn't left.

again, this is all book, the movies had him weaker and afraid...PJ!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

At first the Wizards were supposed to be rather numerous and common - almost like special "folk".Here the FIVE wizards appeared out of nowhere and remained firmly in the story.

Interesting research, Gordis.
As for Wizards, I don't think they were numerous and common, but those, who dwelt at that time, had been well known and accounted for a quite some time.They had been frequent Gondor's visitiors :"In former days the members of my order had been well received there, but Saruman most of all “ (FOTR. Book II) , said Gandalf about other wizards visiting the White city . They were attending meetings of the White Council and their favorite pastime was an antique -hunting
…”it was after the White Counsil in the South (Where? Gondor?) that I first began to give serious thought to Bilbo’s ring. There was much talk of rings at the Council: even wizards have much to learn as long as they live.” (HOME.Treason of Isengard” The 4th phase)
“Some (rings) no more than toys, and not difficult to contrive if you go in for such things” (HOME.Treason of Isengard” The 4th phase)…this quote is suggesting that other wizards(not only Saruman) were looking for the rings.

Four were identified, only one missing:
Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White, Radagast the Brown + initially the Wizard King. I suppose his colour was Black.

Curious observation. Can we connect your theory about Nazgul's autonomy and the Black wizard, who at some time 300 years later decided to have an independent enterprise and founded Angmar?

[The Gaffer]

Those are excellent contributions, Gordis, amongst the most interesting I've seen posted on the Moot.

I rather like the idea of the Wizard King. Why would a Maia not be able to also be a ringwraith? Was not Sauron, a Maia, the original Ringwraith?

Originally Posted by Gordis

At first the Wizards were supposed to be rather numerous and common - almost like special "folk".

I also like the idea of Wizards being more numerous. I think there are several passages where this sort of concept is referred to, especially in The Hobbit, e.g. and that magic, in general, started out as a more widespread thing in M-E.
- When the Rings is found, Gandalf implies that there may be lots and lots of rings, not a fixed number.
- In Shadow of the Past, he expresses a "professional interest"
- We have numerous references to "sorcery" going on, from Angmar to Umbar.

[brownjenkins]

great info gordis... i've read most of it but never heard it put together so well

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I rather like the idea of the Wizard King. Why would a Maia not be able to also be a ringwraith?

I don't know the answer to that, but if I understand Gordis post, the reson why the Wizard King was eliminated is not because a maya cannnot be a ringwraith but because the nine were given "to men", not "to men and maya"

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I also like the idea of Wizards being more numerous. I think there are several passages where this sort of concept is referred to, especially in The Hobbit, e.g. and that magic, in general, started out as a more widespread thing in M-E.
- When the Rings is found, Gandalf implies that there may be lots and lots of rings, not a fixed number.
- In Shadow of the Past, he expresses a "professional interest"
- We have numerous references to "sorcery" going on, from Angmar to Umbar.

Yes, magic and magic rings were more widespread than one actually sees in LotR, but I think that maya's magic is now kept separate from human witchcraft and from elven magic (remeber what the elves say about the use of the world magic as referred to them)

[durinsbane2244]

if you read the hobbit [which counts as fact here as it is in the same world with shared characters] it says that there are many magic rings of varying power, the 3, 7, 9, and 1 are only those made by or under the influence of sauron.

also, gandalf says in the FotR outside moria's door that he once knew every spell in every tongue...soooo...magic not just to maiar...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The seven and the nine were not made under Saurons power IIRC, they only use the skill that he taught them

[Gordis]

Thanks for the kind words about these notes.

Originally Posted by olmer

Curious observation. Can we connect your theory about Nazgul's autonomy and the Black wizard, who at some time 300 years later decided to have an independent enterprise and founded Angmar?

No, we can't . Here we discuss the earlier conceptions Tolkien had and then rejected, and their remnants in the LOTR text as well as some resulting inconsistencies and plot-holes. We discuss it from the LITERARY POV, as one discusses a fiction novel.
My Nazgul autonomy theory and all your theories are based on the published LOTR text and other contemporary and later writings treated as one would treat a HISTORICAL SOURCE. I LOVE this approach, but it is simply not applicable to the drafts, later re-written by the author.

Originally Posted by olmer

As for Wizards, I don't think they were numerous and common, but those, who dwelt at that time, had been well known and accounted for a quite some time.

That would be the explanation for the overlooked remnants of the old ideas in the LOTR:

Dwarves and such other folk, Rangers, Wizards, or wanderers, as still passed to and fro through that ancient road-meeting.

But when you think on it, what wizards but Gandalf have the Shire hobbits ever seen before the War of the Ring? Not Saruman (if he came, he came in disguise). Not Rhadagast (he has shown in his talk with Gandalf that he had no idea of the Shire). Not the Blue Wizards, as they went away East long ago. So what wizards??

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I also like the idea of Wizards being more numerous. I think there are several passages where this sort of concept is referred to, especially in The Hobbit, e.g. and that magic, in general, started out as a more widespread thing in M-E.
- When the Rings is found, Gandalf implies that there may be lots and lots of rings, not a fixed number.
- In Shadow of the Past, he expresses a "professional interest"
- We have numerous references to "sorcery" going on, from Angmar to Umbar.

Very good points. "professional interest" is another unedited remnant of "wizards as a profession". All the Hobbit was based on that idea as the beginning of "the Sequel to the Hobbit" - the LOTR.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Why would a Maia not be able to also be a ringwraith?

I believe, because a Maia has an eternal life by definition, he would need no Ring to prolong his life. Neither would he fade. Sauron hasn't faded wielding his ring, has he? Also the Istari appeared in ME in TA 1000, while the Ringwraiths appeared about 2500 years before them. And, of course,as the Wizard from Milan says, the 9 were given to Men, not to "8 Men and one Maia"

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

personally, i think that Gandalf was more powerful than the Witch King.
contrary to the image of fearing him we recieve from the films, or Tolkien's drafts, in the final story, Gandalf says to Gimli that he[Gimli] could not meet anyone more powerful than him[Gandalf] once he was white, unless you were taken to the feet of Sauron alive.
this, coupled with the point that while Grey, Gandalf could defeat a fallen Maia, he could make short work of a fallen MAN once he is White.
it is my belief that the only reason Gandalf did not confront the Witch King is because Pippin came to him to save Faramir, so the chance was stolen from him and the prophecy was fulfilled, not because he fled. he also says something along the lines of him being able to save theoden if he hadn't left.

again, this is all book, the movies had him weaker and afraid...PJ!

Well, let us not discuss the movies here. I doubt PJ has EVER read the drafts!

But I agree that Gandalf didn't run away, instead he was prepared to follow the Witch-King onto the field, once the WK withdrew from the gate to deal with Theoden.
Actually Gandalf the White Maia should have been rather confident before the battle with the Witch-King.

And there is another aspect of the problem: THE PROPHESY ("not by the hand of man shall he fall ").

Now, in the published LOTR, the prophesy DOESN'T EXCLUDE Gandalf. He is NO MAN, he is a Maia.
So he is ELIGIBLE to kill the WK . More reasons to be confident.

In the drafts, where Wizards were MEN, Gandalf was NOT ELIGIBLE. That's why he repeated the prophesy to Denethor with such apprehension. If the prophesy were true, there was no way he could kill the Wizard King - another reason to be uncertain of himself and apprehensive.

And do you know that there were earlier versions of the prophesy?

Please note that neither of the older versions made Gandalf eligible!

The earliest:

"yet it was foretold that he should be overthrown, in the end, by one young and gallant." Home 8, page 326

The next:

"and if words spoken of old come true, he is not doomed to fall before warrior or wise [>men of war or wisdom]; but in the hour of his victory to be overthrown by one who has never slain a man [>by one who has slain no living thing]. HOME 8, pp 334-335.

The second version of the prophesy is very interesting. Eowyn in this draft tells the Wizard-King: "Begone! For though I have slain no living thing, yet I will slay the Undead." p 368
And the Wizard King says to Gandalf at the Gate "This is my hour of victory!" (it remained in LOTR as "This is my hour.") By these words he HIMSELF puts the prophesy in motion. Pity that this dramatic touch was lost in the final text.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

That is interesting about Eowyn. It may suggest that the death of Theoden was sue to happen earlier in the battle, for it is very unlikely that Eowyn would not have killed anyone during the charge or the charge uponm the Mûmakil.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by TD

That is interesting about Eowyn. It may suggest that the death of Theoden was sue to happen earlier in the battle, for it is very unlikely that Eowyn would not have killed anyone during the charge or the charge uponm the Mûmakil.

Eowyn never charged the Mumakil, ONLY in PJ's movie. In Books there was only a clash with Southron Cavalry. It is not said whether she killed anybody or not.
Anyway, how can anyone but a newborn baby claim that he killed no living thing? You squash a mosquito, you go hunting, you wring the neck of a chicken to prepare a stew and there you are. No wonder Tolkien has edited it.

[durinsbane2244]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Well, let us not discuss the movies here. I doubt PJ has EVER read the drafts!

yes, have you seen the one ring to rule them all cartoons? tell me about it...

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

The seven and the nine were not made under Saurons power IIRC, they only use the skill that he taught them

yes, thus the "influence" part...yep...that's what that meant...