confusing

worldlitclass · 10-14-2005, 05:32 PM

If the ring had to be distroyed in order for sauron to die, how can he not know it still exists (since he is alive?)

**Nurvingiel** · 10-14-2005, 07:35 PM

Maybe he didn't realize exactly how dependent he was on it. IOW, Elrond figured it out, but Sauron didn't necessarily.

rohirrim TR · 10-14-2005, 10:21 PM

yeah, sort of like me i thought i could do a day without caffeine; but that didn't work out too well

actually i'm off it now, but it was tough

worldlitclass · 10-14-2005, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worldlitclass

If the ring had to be distroyed in order for sauron to die, how can he not know it still exists (since he is alive?)

"It's a dangerous buiness Frodo, going out your door," He used to say," you step out into the road, that was like a great river: it's springs were at every door step, and every path was it's tributary." " It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door," he used to say."You might step into the road and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept of to. Do you realize that this is the very path that goes throug Mirkwood, and even that if you let it, it might take you to the Lonely Mountain or even worse places?" he used to say that on the path outside the front door of Bag End, Especially after he had been out for a long walk.

Curubethion · 10-14-2005, 11:47 PM

But he did know it existed. Why else would he send out his wraiths? For a short period, he went into a state of "unconsciousness", when Gollum went into the caves. When he awakened, he immediately realized that the Ring existed.

Spock · 10-17-2005, 11:46 AM

**right-t-o, Curubethion, a well put post.

durinsbane2244 · 12-11-2005, 10:01 PM

indeed!

Spock · 12-12-2005, 12:12 PM

Hey, DB , you took two months to reply to this posting......great....Now I feel better when I miss a few days.

durinsbane2244 · 12-12-2005, 09:56 PM

well no, see, the trivias and such are more important, so by the time i go down my list of priorities and i'm just raring to go here [jibe at spock] i have to leave...

me9996 · 12-12-2005, 10:03 PM

I think he knew but was waiting to gather what stringth he had first.

durinsbane2244 · 12-12-2005, 10:10 PM

yea, let's go with that...

Gordis · 12-13-2005, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curubethion

But he did know it existed. Why else would he send out his wraiths? For a short period, he went into a state of "unconsciousness", when Gollum went into the caves. When he awakened, he immediately realized that the Ring existed.

So poor Sauron lay unconscious whenever a ringbearer went underground?

Then the poor Necromancer had been unconscious for about 500 years.

mithrand1r · 12-13-2005, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

So poor Sauron lay unconscious whenever a ringbearer went underground?

Then the poor Necromancer had been unconscious for about 500 years.

Wouldn't this imply that the people of ME could "contain" the malice of Sauron by hiding the ring underground?

Sauron would be sleeping while the rest of ME went about its merry way.

Maybe Olmer could enlighten us with some alternate theories.
(His theories were interesting since they had some plausibility based on the text.)
Perhaps the Elves will try to get the ring lost underground? Then they could enjoy the benefits of their three rings in peace.

brownjenkins · 12-13-2005, 10:18 AM

sauron is a ainu... as such, he cannot "die"... that said, he put much of his soul into the ring to make it powerful

he recovered very quickly from his first "death" when numenor sank... most likely because he had left his ring in barad-dur and was able to immediately access it after he lost his body... his second "death" (to the last alliance) took longer for him to recover from since he did not have access to his ring afterward... but, he was still able to eventually rebuild a body, so one would assume that hiding the ring would have done no good

while there are certainly points in time where he kept a low-profile, i'm not sure if sauron was ever actually "unconcious"

Merenwen Vardamir · 12-13-2005, 11:46 AM

Does the ring remind anyone else of the Horcruxes in Harry Potter? It's so close to Sauron that he lives as long as it survives, and Voldemort lives as long as his horcruxes survive....

brownjenkins · 12-13-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merenwen Vardamir

Does the ring remind anyone else of the Horcruxes in Harry Potter? It's so close to Sauron that he lives as long as it survives, and Voldemort lives as long as his horcruxes survive....

there are certainly similarities... and the idea is actually much older than tolkien and appears in many ancient folk tales, like this russian character

Elanor · 12-14-2005, 01:02 AM

Yeah, I would say it's the other way around, Merenwen. In fact, I read a book based on the legend of Koschei the Deathless (The Firebird, by Mercedes Lackey) right before Harry Potter 6 came out and had a suspicion that Voldemort might be using some object to preserve his soul like Koschei and Sauron did.

Merenwen Vardamir · 12-14-2005, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

there are certainly similarities... and the idea is actually much older than tolkien and appears in many ancient folk tales, like this russian character

So do you think that is where Rowling got it? I was just thinking about Lord of the Rings, but there do seem to be a lot of stories like that.... I mostly compared it to LOTR because of the other similarities in the books....

durinsbane2244 · 12-14-2005, 08:46 PM

i just read that russian story...wasn't too bad...

The Wizard from Milan · 12-25-2005, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worldlitclass

If the ring had to be distroyed in order for sauron to die, how can he not know it still exists (since he is alive?)

Where does it say in canon that Sauron was unaware that the ring was still in existance?

10-14-2005, 05:32 PM	#1
worldlitclass Sapling Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2	confusing If the ring had to be distroyed in order for sauron to die, how can he not know it still exists (since he is alive?)

10-14-2005, 11:47 PM	#5
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	But he did know it existed. Why else would he send out his wraiths? For a short period, he went into a state of "unconsciousness", when Gollum went into the caves. When he awakened, he immediately realized that the Ring existed. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-17-2005, 11:46 AM	#6
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	**right-t-o, Curubethion, a well put post. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

12-11-2005, 10:01 PM	#7
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	indeed! __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

12-12-2005, 12:12 PM	#8
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Hey, DB , you took two months to reply to this posting......great....Now I feel better when I miss a few days. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

12-12-2005, 09:56 PM	#9
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	well no, see, the trivias and such are more important, so by the time i go down my list of priorities and i'm just raring to go here [jibe at spock] i have to leave... __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

12-12-2005, 10:10 PM	#11
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	yea, let's go with that... __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

12-13-2005, 10:18 AM	#14
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	sauron is a ainu... as such, he cannot "die"... that said, he put much of his soul into the ring to make it powerful he recovered very quickly from his first "death" when numenor sank... most likely because he had left his ring in barad-dur and was able to immediately access it after he lost his body... his second "death" (to the last alliance) took longer for him to recover from since he did not have access to his ring afterward... but, he was still able to eventually rebuild a body, so one would assume that hiding the ring would have done no good while there are certainly points in time where he kept a low-profile, i'm not sure if sauron was ever actually "unconcious" __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

12-13-2005, 11:46 AM	#15
Merenwen Vardamir Enting Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Ever Lost, Childress. Posts: 93	Does the ring remind anyone else of the Horcruxes in Harry Potter? It's so close to Sauron that he lives as long as it survives, and Voldemort lives as long as his horcruxes survive....

12-14-2005, 01:02 AM	#17
Elanor Hobbit in the Music Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Westmarch Posts: 1,111	Yeah, I would say it's the other way around, Merenwen. In fact, I read a book based on the legend of Koschei the Deathless (The Firebird, by Mercedes Lackey) right before Harry Potter 6 came out and had a suspicion that Voldemort might be using some object to preserve his soul like Koschei and Sauron did. __________________ Middle Earth Crossword Puzzle on the Tolkien Site of DOOM Segovia Mazes

12-14-2005, 08:46 PM	#19
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	i just read that russian story...wasn't too bad... __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

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