LOTR Discussion Project: Book IV, Chapters 5 & 6

[The Gaffer]

Book IV, Chapter 5 – The Window on the West

I'm going to be a bit of a cheeky chappie. I suspect it's not working having a big massive post with hundreds of discussion points right at the start of these threads which nobody can be arsed reading.

So, I am going to post a 15-second summary and a couple of discussion points, then move on. I will post the long summary at the end so that your contributions can be part of it.

Long summary posted here

15-second Summary
The key development in this chapter is that Faramir decides to trust Frodo. Not the most action-packed chapter, but an important milestone in Frodo’s character development. For the first time, Frodo takes sole command of the fate of the Ring, and it is accepted by a “senior� character in this role.

But this is a very rich chapter in terms of historical as well as character development. The clue is in the title: we look back over the centuries, and get a sense of the nobility and grace that has faded from the world.

Discussion points:

1) Frodo has been changing over the past chapters, taking charge of the Quest, and here, negotiating extremely skillfully with a very smart, difficult and (fortunately) wise opponent.

I think this is a real milestone: Frodo is the *only* character in LoTR who undergoes significant change, and this is the first true measure of it. Do you agree?

2) The Window on the West is, of course, a metaphor for Gondor looking back to the glory days of Numenor. Discuss.


3)

Originally Posted by Faramir

Not if I found it on the highway would I take it. Even if I were such a man as to desire this thing.... I should take these words as a vow and be held by them

Yeah, right. Who believes him?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Book IV, Chapter 5 – The Window on the West

I'm going to be a bit of a cheeky chappie. I suspect it's not working having a big massive post with hundreds of discussion points right at the start of these threads which nobody can be arsed reading.

So, I am going to post a 15-second summary and a couple of discussion points, then move on. I will post the long summary at the end so that your contributions can be part of it.

15-second Summary
The key development in this chapter is that Faramir decides to trust Frodo. Not the most action-packed chapter, but an important milestone in Frodo’s character development. For the first time, Frodo takes sole command of the fate of the Ring, and it is accepted by a “senior� character in this role.

But this is a very rich chapter in terms of historical as well as character development. The clue is in the title: we look back over the centuries, and get a sense of the nobility and grace that has faded from the world.

Discussion points:

1) Frodo has been changing over the past chapters, taking charge of the Quest, and here, negotiating extremely skillfully with a very smart, difficult and (fortunately) wise opponent.

I think this is a real milestone: Frodo is the *only* character in LoTR who undergoes significant change, and this is the first true measure of it. Do you agree?

2) The Window on the West is, of course, a metaphor for Gondor looking back to the glory days of Numenor. Discuss.


3)


Yeah, right. Who believes him?

I believed him. Though I suspect that when Faramir made the statement, he was not expecting to find the object fall into his "lap". Similar to statements that many people often make: "If that ever happened to me, I would . . . " but are never tested to see if they would hold to their word.

Faramir held true to his word.

I think Merry and Pippen undergo a change as well as Frodo. Their (M&P) perspective changes after their experiences.

Nice idea for an intro.

[Gordis]

I agree that a short intro is a good idea. Perhaps there will be a more animated discussion.
1) I think this is a real milestone: Frodo is the *only* character in LoTR who undergoes significant change, and this is the first true measure of it. Do you agree??
Yes I agree. The others characters are static, except Boromir, perhaps, but his change, as well as Frodo's, in due to the Ring. Saruman was right saying " You have grown, Halfling, grown wise and cruel" (quoting from my memory). Yes Frodo has grown.

2) The Window on the West is, of course, a metaphor for Gondor looking back to the glory days of Numenor. Discuss.
I never thought of it as a metaphor... Perhaps you are right.

3)Yeah, right. Who believes him?
I think he believed it himself. He was able to let the Ring go, but was it because he was totally unaffected by it? Hardly. I think he was exposed to the ring's lure for too short a time to feel the full effect. Perhaps he would have "fallen", like Boromir, given time.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks, guys.

On the Frodo question, you make a good point, M, in that Merry and Pippin do undergo their own changes; my mistake. Well remembered, Gordis: Saruman does indeed say that in ROTK and it marks Frodo's true transition to one of the wise.

What do you think about this chapter marking the high point of Frodo's change? Faramir is a smart and wise opponent, yet Frodo more than holds his own.

On the metaphor thing, the Window on the West is reminiscient of Frodo's dream in Bombadil's house, where there is a "rain-curtain" or similar, which is drawn back to reveal Valinor.

I picture the men huddled in their cave, standing solemnly to face the window before they eat and remembering what they have lost.

[Elanor the Fair]

Well done, Gaffer,
I'm next on the list and I agree with you. I think I'll keep my summary short as well.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

[b]
3)


Yeah, right. Who believes him?

We want to believe Faramir. It gives us faith in humanity that amongst weakness there is also strength.

[The Gaffer]

Yep. I think this would lead nicely into the next discussion point but would like to leave it for a day or so to let people respond to the other points.

It would be particularly useful, I think, to get a view on Frodo's character development.

[Rían]

(funny, TT movie is on right now, I"m letting the 2 youngest watch it for the first time, and guess what's on now? They're in the cave being questioned by Faramir! One line I love in the movie is when F. asks Frodo about Sam - "and who is this, your bodyguard?" and Sam answers "his gardener!" It seems like a sarcastic remark, but it's true!)

I believe Faramir believes it of himself, and then wisely stays away from it as much as possible. I always loved the description of Faramir, how he doesn't love the sword or fighting for themselves, but for what they preserve.

[Artanis]

Good idea Gaffer

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

The Window on the West is, of course, a metaphor for Gondor looking back to the glory days of Numenor. Discuss.

That's a nice idea.
Personally I associated the title of the chapter also with Faramir himself, because he is the person in Gondor who most resembles the Númenoreans in spiritual nobility. Gandalf says (about Denethor) in book V ch 1:

He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Yeah, right. Who believes him?

I do believe him, for the reason given above. Faramir was wise and learned, he knew what he was dealing with, he was wise enough to learn from history. He would not take the Ring, because he knew that he would be corrupted and betrayed, like Isildur and Boromir before him.

After all, both Gandalf and Galadriel had already rejected the Ring. There is no reason why Faramir should not be able to do the same.

[The Gaffer]

Hello and thanks, nice to see you both back!

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

One line I love in the movie is when F. asks Frodo about Sam - "and who is this, your bodyguard?" and Sam answers "his gardener!"

Yes, I love that line too. Not in the book but very true to the spirit. In the book, of course, we've also got Faramir's comment "gardeners must be helf in high honour there" about the Shire, which I take as an acknowledgement of Frodo's and Sam's achievements.

Since you've referenced the movies, I'd like to as well. This is the reason for asking "do you believe him?" about the Ring thing. Clearly, Peter Jackson didn't.

This is why, I think, that they take the hobbits to Osgiliath and have to insert the ridiculous and notorious Ring-waving scene. I suspect that PJ et al considered it incredible that Faramir would not take the Ring to Minas Tirith. Either that or they felt they were unable to get across the nobility of his mind, which would make it credible.

It's disappointing because, in the this Chapter, of course, we get a detailed insight into Faramir, and mostly through dialogue than description, so you would have thought it could be put across on-screen with some good scripting and good acting.

I never thought of Faramir himself being the Window, but that makes a lot of sense and adds yet another dimension to it. Nice one, Arty.

[Artanis]

Thank you Gaffer.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I think this is a real milestone: Frodo is the *only* character in LoTR who undergoes significant change, and this is the first true measure of it. Do you agree?

Yes and no. I think every one of the characters in LotR are developed one way or the other. But Frodo has really changed, significantly more than the others, because he as the Ring-bearer is heavily influenced by the Ring. It is a process which started when he first took the Ring in the Shire, and which will culminate at Mount Doom. But let us not rush forward. I agree that we clearly see a new authority in Frodo here. He is not daunted by Faramir's close interrogations, but answers skilfully and carefully. He even says something that may be taken as a threat:

Yet those who claim to oppose the Enemy would do well not to hinder it.

Yet I do not think this is the first time we see the change in Frodo. Perhaps we get the first glimpse of it in Lórien, when he perceives the desires of Galadriel. But I think the taming of Sméagol is the first significant sign that the Ring is working upon our hero.

[The Gaffer]

Yes, when I was mulling this over in my mind, I thought of Lorien as the other "stand-out" point in Frodo's development.

There, Galadriel treated him as a special, particular kind of person, who had control over his own destiny and that of the Ring. Another landmark would, of course, be Parth Galen, but there you have his panic and fear that the Ring would destroy all of his friends, so you could argue it was a decision taken out of fear rather than "taking control".

The Taming of Smeagol is a milestone too, though here it is mostly through Sam's eyes and is just directed towards one "lesser" character.

How much of this change do you think is due to "the Ring taking control" and how much is due to Frodo rising to the occasion?

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

How much of this change do you think is due to "the Ring taking control" and how much is due to Frodo rising to the occasion?

I think it is 100% the case of Frodo rising to the occasion. Just think of Gollum. That was 100% the other case.

[The Gaffer]

Agreed, though perhaps he got some confidence from the Ring.

[The Gaffer]

OK, time for another discussion point.

The Dunedain of the South
For the first time, we get a direct insight into the culture of the Men whom Aragorn would rule. It is a glimpse, perhaps, of what was in the past and might have been in the North of Middle-Earth.

Much of the talk is of fading and failing strength, the hopeless battle against Mordor’s ever-increasing strength.

Editorial:
Tolkien’s folk are hierarchical, no two ways about it. Elves are Light or Dark, High or Silvan, etc. We now learn that Men are High (Numenorean), Middle (noble savages) or Dark (squinty-eyed, presumably).

Another parallel is in how the greater become like the lesser, and the lesser like the greater, over time. Boromir, a Numenorean, is explicitly likened to the Rohirrim by Faramir. We’ve already seen how the Rohirrim are elevated by their association with Gondor.

Discussion points:

• What’s the story here? Is this part of Middle-Earth’s nature: all things merge into the middle ground? Must Elves live in Valinor to remain High, and Men in Numenor? Are all who live in Middle-Earth condemned to be less than they might? What do you think?
• It is clear that Gondor has taken the brunt of the Enemy for some time. Why did Gondor not call for aid sooner, and why wasn’t it offered?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

How much of this change do you think is due to "the Ring taking control" and how much is due to Frodo rising to the occasion?

Good question. I think Frodo already had developed a desire to possess the Ring for himself, in the sense that he did not want to give it away, could not give it away. That is why I think it was mostly the Ring working at the Gollum incident, where it was clearly the intent of Gollum to steal the Ring. Also with Faramir, as far as Frodo was able to know Faramir could have done like Faramir in the movie ( ) or worse, he could have tried to take the Ring by force. But - we have already seen many episodes where Frodo has showed that he has got both cleverness and courage. In the Barrow-Downs, at Weathertop, the battle in Moria - episodes that imo shows Frodo's inherent virtues.

Interesting new discussion points Gaffer. I'm not able to respond to them today, so later.

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

[*]It is clear that Gondor has taken the brunt of the Enemy for some time. Why did Gondor not call for aid sooner, and why wasn’t it offered?[/list]

IIRC, the only people that answer the call for help were from Rohan.

It could be pride on Denethor's part for not asking for assistance earlier. Perhaps the people that they could ask for help were unable to assist due to their own problems.

It is possible that help was offered, but refused for what ever reason? (Denethor's pride? strings attached to the offer of help?)

I do not have much in the way of documentation to beck up my opinions, but I thought I'd throw the thoughts out there.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

How much of this change do you think is due to "the Ring taking control" and how much is due to Frodo rising to the occasion?

I have replied to that

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I think it is 100% the case of Frodo rising to the occasion. Just think of Gollum. That was 100% the other case.

Sorry to reply to the same question for the second time, but now I have thought on it more, and I don't think Frodo and Gollum's cases were so different.
Gandalf said: "The ring gives power according to the measure of its possessor". (Sort of multiplied the actual strength, say 10 times. )

Gollum was weak. Frodo was stronger (mentally that is) from the start. So, as a ringbearer, he became MUCH stronger than Gollum.
Gandalf, for example, was the strongest, and the Ring would have given him terrible power.

I remember I read a quote somewhere where Tolkien says that Sauron’s deceit "leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith."

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

• What’s the story here? Is this part of Middle-Earth’s nature: all things merge into the middle ground? Must Elves live in Valinor to remain High, and Men in Numenor? Are all who live in Middle-Earth condemned to be less than they might? What do you think?

• it seems to me that "high" in the case of the elves we're those that had been to valinor, and their descendents... while "high" in the case of men were those that had associated with the "high" elves of beleriand, and later inhabited numenor
  
  that said, the "nobility" may be more tradition than real... the men of gondor were numerous generations removed even from the last of the numenorians... it would be like us drawing from the egyptians... and you can see just as much nobility in the men of dale, for instance, who had no connection with the high elves at all... the sole exception being aragon's line, who obviously had the high elven blood connection
  
  another part of this appearance nobility may be that the descendant's of numenor had more material and cultural wealth to draw upon when they settled in middle earth... they were simply more advanced, and it wasn't so much moving to middle ground as it was bringing the majority of mankind up to their level... one can only assume that the men of a millenium after sauron's fall would be much more advanced than numenor ever was (if not quite so "magical")
  
  in many ways, i almost see it as a design by eru for the elves to kind of be a "father figure" of sorts to the men of middle earth... to bring them through the hard times, to a point where they could eventually take care of themselves... some passages in the silmarillion can be interpreted as pointing to men as the intended inheritors of middle earth
  
  

  It is clear that Gondor has taken the brunt of the Enemy for some time. Why did Gondor not call for aid sooner, and why wasn’t it offered?

i think it is mostly a question of who they could have asked... in terms of men, they really drew from all the sources they had available... that said, they could have tried harder... would an alliance with the leaders of harad have been impossible during the early years of sauron's return? who knows... they could be accused of being a bit to caught up in their own "nobility"

and i'd say they failed bigtime in not attempting to make any contact with the people's of lorien or the woodelves of mirkwood... no leader of men ever quite stepped up to the level of gil-galad with the last alliance

[The Gaffer]

EDIT: I am off on holiday for a week so will have to leave you to your own devices for a bit. Thanks to those of you who have pushed this along; it's always interesting to get your perspectives.

Once I'm back I will post the long summary (incorporating your responses of course), a final set of discussion points and the 15-second fella for The Forbidden Pool.

Ta-ta!

Back to the original post:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
On that last point: yes. I suppose it is there to underline the estrangements between Elves and Men.

That's also something that's emphasised in this chapter, and it's something that ties together a couple of these points.

How did this happen?

If, in the late T.A, Men harked back to Numenor 3,000 years ago and the Last Alliance, how could they fail to keep up relations with the elves, their key partners against Sauron?

Did the elves fail in their "duty of care" for the people of Middle-Earth? If we accept the Elves are intended to inhabit the Undying Lands, and Men Middle-Earth, where does this leave the Moriquendi?

Back to the chapter, there is clearly a lot of divided opinion even within noble families on this point. It is interesting to contrast Faramir's reaction to Frodo's account of Lothlorien (positive and reverential) with Boromir's attitude to the place (suspicious).

So, is it an "academic" pursuit to hark back to the alliance with the elves? Maybe that is why Faramir has "an air of Wizards" about him.