REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Ruinel]

Alright.

What religion are you? Besides, just Christian.

[hectorberlioz]

What?! what do you mean 'besides christian'? I am ONLY a christian. If yo mean my christian denomination then: Eastern Orthodox(orthodox church was founded after christ's acension, it was only called 'the church' back then, it was called the 'orthodox church' after the great schism)

[Ruinel]

Would you like to explain more about your Christian denomination? It's entirely possible that there are some people that are not familiar with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[hectorberlioz]

Ok.
Lets start with the apostles peter and paul. after christs acension, these two went their ways into different parts of the world preaching. And all of the countries or wherever else that converted were called part of 'the church'. alright lets skip ahead now: tons of years later the eastern capital of the church,Constantinople, had a dispute with the western capital of the church,Rome.
Apperently, the pope at that time decided that he was the portal to heaven, and that no one could enter heaven without his 'blessing'(anyone who knows more about this feel free to correct me), well the bishop in constantinople meanwhile was writing the pope asking him to stop this heresy. the pope kept on however and the two capitals split and the western one was known as the'catholic' church and the eastern part was known as the 'orthodox' church. There were more issues involved, but i dont know too many.
This arguement between the two capitals was called The Great Schism.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
Ok.
Lets start with the apostles peter and paul. after christs acension, these two went their ways into different parts of the world preaching. And all of the countries or wherever else that converted were called part of 'the church'. alright lets skip ahead now: tons of years later the eastern capital of the church,Constantinople, had a dispute with the western capital of the church,Rome.
Apperently, the pope at that time decided that he was the portal to heaven, and that no one could enter heaven without his 'blessing'(anyone who knows more about this feel free to correct me), well the bishop in constantinople meanwhile was writing the pope asking him to stop this heresy. the pope kept on however and the two capitals split and the western one was known as the'catholic' church and the eastern part was known as the 'orthodox' church. There were more issues involved, but i dont know too many.
This arguement between the two capitals was called The Great Schism.

yeah it went something along those lines...although there are still eastern catholic churches who's liturgy and rites are almost exactly like the orthodox only that they follow the Pope in Rome. I've always been interested in the Eastern Churches and their liturgies etc., I find the Roman rite boring at times.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
.....This arguement between the two capitals was called The Great Schism.

Ok, so then what is different between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church?

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

Ruinel, what do you think of tax dollars paying the salary of military chaplains? The reason I ask is because you wrote: “I have a problem with the schools in the area giving Christian groups a place to hold services for worshipping on Sundays.” Army chaplains not only pray with soldiers, but they use government money to hold denominationally specific Sunday services, and the government pays for chapels to be built, prayer books and hymnals, etc. I’ve heard the argument from the perspective of public schools, but never in connection with the military. For consistency’s sake, it would seem that you have to opposed to military chaplains if you are opposed to public money being used for any religious purpose on public property.

--Dave

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
Ruinel, what do you think of tax dollars paying the salary of military chaplains? ....
--Dave

Great point, Dave. It's not so cut and dry.

A school is set up to provide public education from tax dollars to the local children. They are not sent away to study, away from the ability to worship at their local churches.

However, in the military, personnel are stationed all over the world, and not normally by their choice, but by the particular needs of their government. They are separated from the ministry of their chosen religion. I think that it is reasonable to provide a building for all religious services, and for them to share the facility (Jewish services at 7pm Saturday night; Catholic mass at 8am Sunday; Baptist services at 5pm Sunday evening; etc.). However, I think that chaplans, priests, rabbi, etc. should not receive a salary from the government. Instead, I believe that their salaries should be provided by the church they serve (i.e., Rome should pay for Catholic priests, Baptist missionary services should pay for preachers, etc.). It should be considered as if they are serving as a missionary. If a denomination doesn't want to provide for clergy for that base, then fine. But to have my tax dollars pay for their salaries, I have a problem with that as well.

As for hymnals, etc. That too should come from the church. I'm sure that an extra basket can be passed around one Sunday a month asking for an donations for the military religious needs if that's the case.

Separation of church and state, it's a fine line.

[Giroth]

Alright here's my story.I know most of you here (Ruinel included....) know I'm a christian.

But people tend to think that christianity is very restrictng and/or pathetic.

i don't feel like getting into a big debate,so this is all I'll post here for now.I know it's a thread for debating,but I'm not in the mood.i'll just post what I'd like to say real quick.

Christianity is NOT about going to church,
giving everything you enjoy away for God,or anything like that.


It's simply about believing that there is ONE God,
and in his son, Jesus Christ.
there you go.prayer and reading the bible
get you closer to Him.
I personally have never gone to church.i don't sing in church choirs,nothing like that.
i still play games,watch regular tv,and all that.Your life changes for the better after it,but you still are quite normal.
i just feel like I have a purpose,
and am much happier now.I don't feel like I'm going through the motions of life.wheter you think it's real or not,
it HAS helped me.I've put my faith into what I can't see,but I haven't
been let down yet.

Remember,this is not a message of real debate.i'm just stating my feelings on my belief.


There it is.

Later,

~Giroth

[Ruinel]

Giroth: I know I named this thread "REAL debate thread for RELIGION", but you can simply just explain what you believe here if you want. If you do not wish to debate, I hope you will not mind if others ask you questions regarding your specific belief system, though.

Here's why I opened this thread. Since the other thread, Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you", had changed course from the original starting post (because that was where the thread starter, Rian, wanted it to go), I had thought this a nice place to discuss and/or debate issues of a religious nature. These issues do NOT necessarily have to be only Christian. I encourage all belief systems to post here. So, you are not off topic to explain your position and not debate it. And, welcome.

So, you say that you are a Christian, but you have never gone to church. Are you non-denominational Christian then?

[Giroth]

hahaha,alright,i'll pop my head back in real quickThanks for a bit nicer welcome this time.....

I am simply a Chrisitan.
I am unable to go to church,due to issues with my non christian dad.
But,that doesn't stop me from studying and all that.i can do it just fine at home and with friends.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ok, so then what is different between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church?

basically it's the Pope...the Catholic Church is under the Pope and the EAstern Orthodox Church is under the Archbishop of Istanbul I think but I could be wrong...feel free to correct me anyone!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Great point, Dave. It's not so cut and dry.

A school is set up to provide public education from tax dollars to the local children. They are not sent away to study, away from the ability to worship at their local churches.

However, in the military, personnel are stationed all over the world, and not normally by their choice, but by the particular needs of their government. They are separated from the ministry of their chosen religion. I think that it is reasonable to provide a building for all religious services, and for them to share the facility (Jewish services at 7pm Saturday night; Catholic mass at 8am Sunday; Baptist services at 5pm Sunday evening; etc.). However, I think that chaplans, priests, rabbi, etc. should not receive a salary from the government. Instead, I believe that their salaries should be provided by the church they serve (i.e., Rome should pay for Catholic priests, Baptist missionary services should pay for preachers, etc.). It should be considered as if they are serving as a missionary. If a denomination doesn't want to provide for clergy for that base, then fine. But to have my tax dollars pay for their salaries, I have a problem with that as well.

As for hymnals, etc. That too should come from the church. I'm sure that an extra basket can be passed around one Sunday a month asking for an donations for the military religious needs if that's the case.

Separation of church and state, it's a fine line.

as far as I know, Catholic priest are paid by the Diocese...which in turn gets it's money from people donateing and stuff and I'm not sure but Rome might also help pay for salaries and stuff

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
as far as I know, Catholic priest are paid by the Diocese...which in turn gets it's money from people donateing and stuff and I'm not sure but Rome might also help pay for salaries and stuff

Good. I feel better about it already.

[Brill]

but you still are quite normal

I guess that's the difference between what you believe and what I believe.

Okay, just to say one thing: what I believe and what I do are two seperate things. I am not a good person, nor do I pretend to be, I am a sinner, and I CHOOSE to continue to sin. I am compelled to devote my life, but I am in a constant power struggle, in which I CHOOSE not to relinquish the power I have.

Okay, I am a self-proclaimed Biblisist. You will not find a church that practises it, but members in churches who do.

I believe the Bible is truth.

Most often, the stricter more biblisist leaning churches teach that once someone excepts Jesus in their heart there is a profound change about this person. The way they speak changes, they don't cuss or take the Lords name in vain. They dress more modestly. Not necessarily in dresses and suits, but they don't wear something that is too revealing. They try to tell others about Jesus.

They become a zealous and peculiar people.

If you are "still normal", the Bible says this, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Brill
...Okay, just to say one thing: what I believe and what I do are two seperate things. I am not a good person, nor do I pretend to be, I am a sinner, and I CHOOSE to continue to sin. I am compelled to devote my life, but I am in a constant power struggle, in which I CHOOSE not to relinquish the power I have....

Damn! I'm totally impressed! You go Brill!!

[Brill]

Probably not one of my brightest idea's though, I'll get an out-house in Heaven ! (there are many mansions in my Fathers house reference for those non-christians)

[hectorberlioz]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ok, so then what is different between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Well, while the arguments went on (and even before that) the Liturgies in the church of rome evolved somewhat (now catholics call their church services 'Masses')

Note: A liturgy is a sunday service(and a liturgy can also be done on special ocassions, such as easter, or 'Pascha' as the orthodox church calls it.)

Another Note: I prefer this friendly way, which we are using to discuss. Doesnt make me want to leave this board. like the other religion threads. Lets keep it that way

WOOHOO! I figured out how to qoute!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
...Another Note: I prefer this friendly way, which we are using to discuss. Doesnt make me want to leave this board. like the other religion threads. Lets keep it that way

cool. not a problem. This is supposed to be a place where we can be civil and discuss differences, and similarities.

WOOHOO! I figured out how to quote!

yeah, they are called tags. if you want to know more about using this board, pm me and I'll tell you what I know.

[GrayMouser]

AFAIK military chaplains are regularly serving members of a nation's armed forces and are paid like any other soldier according to their rank.

Here's an interesting link from the US Army Chaplains' Handbook explaining Wicca and how to deal with soldiers who are Wiccans

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_usbk.htm