REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[GrayMouser]

Well, I used to call myself an agnostic, but now use the term atheist.

Do I know that there is no God? No.

Do I know that there is not a big purple monster in my closet?
No.

Do I have any evidence that there is a God? No.

Do I have any evidence that there is a big purple monster in my closet? No.

( Just a sec, thought I heard a noise in my clos....AAAARRRGGGHHH!!!)

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Falagar
I think that one part of Buddhism believe he bacame a kind of God, and stopped reincarnating. And I also think that they believe everyone may become that kind of "god", through long and hard meditation, reading their old scipts (which have a very hard name that I can't remember)...

But then again, I may be completely wrong.
We need more diversity in this forum.

It's not actually becoming a "god"; it's being liberated from the whole cycle of Karma (selfish desire leading to wrong-doing)

If you can overcome that then you attain Nirvana- freedom from desire, union with the Ultimate, whatever.

The 'gods' sometimes referred to in popular Buddhism are actually more like saints (at least in Mahayana Buddhism); the Boddhisatvas.

A Boddhisatva is a person who is so spiritually developed that they are able to throw off all human desire and attain Nirvana, but choose not to. Their sense of compassion leads them to vow to remain in human form and aid those trapped in the Wheel of Karma until all sentient beings can attain the same level of perfection and escape from suffering.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by OrnelÃ*rë Mistë
I want to become Buddhist, don't know where to start though! As I know it, there are 3 branches: Zen, Tibetan, and something more close to what Siddhartha taught. I want to be of the last one, I'd appreciate any directions

The basic two branches of Buddhism are Theravada (practised in Sri Lanka and most of South-East Asia) and Mahayana (China, Korea, Japan.)

A quick intro: (be sure to click on the Mahayana link on the bottom to get a balanced view.)

http://www.wsu.edu:8000/~dee/BUDDHISM/THERA.HTM

Both Zen (Chan in Chinese) and Tibetan Buddhism are fairly small and somewhat extreme branches- Tibetan Buddhism in particular is strongly mixed with pre-Buddhist shamanistic beliefs

Far from being a Buddhist "Pope" ,as many Westerners believe,
the Dalai Lama is closer to something like the equivalent of the Mormons- cautiously welcomed as a fellow traveller, but someone whose essential beliefs are by no means accepted as orthodox.

[Radagast The Brown]

I'm jewish. I was always jewish... but we never went to a synagogue. So... I wasn't exactly learnt to pray, or so. But we do celebrate jewish holidays. I'm a secular jew. I think most of you know about jews about everything. So I don't have much to write.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
It's not actually becoming a "god"; it's being liberated from the whole cycle of Karma (selfish desire leading to wrong-doing)

If you can overcome that then you attain Nirvana- freedom from desire, union with the Ultimate, whatever.

The 'gods' sometimes referred to in popular Buddhism are actually more like saints (at least in Mahayana Buddhism); the Boddhisatvas.

A Boddhisatva is a person who is so spiritually developed that they are able to throw off all human desire and attain Nirvana, but choose not to. Their sense of compassion leads them to vow to remain in human form and aid those trapped in the Wheel of Karma until all sentient beings can attain the same level of perfection and escape from suffering.

Thank you for the information (and the link), it's quite a long time since I read anything on Buddhism and our teacher never went that in depth.

[katya]

The fact that not everyone agrees on a certain definition of agnosticism is one of the reasons I don't claim to be one... oh well.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Artanis
Each of you would have exactly the same legal rights as in a man-woman marriage with respect to inheritance if one of you should die.

What a civilised country! Now, if only they'd stop the whaling...

The atheism/agnosticism issue seems to be all about the strength of dis/belief, and how we use the word "know". It's really difficult to come up with reliable definition of something that is entirely based in personal experience. In this sense, you must tend towards one position or another; there's a bit of a suspicion that agnostics are just kind of hedging their bets in case they snuff it and turn up at the Pearly Gates with St Peter giving them a dirty look!

For what it's worth, I think that what we often call "God" is really "love", and that it's not something that exists outside of personal experience. I know that lots of people identify these two terms in a religious context.

I used to have long arguments with Christians about this, who tried to convince me that what I was feeling (when, for example, snogging Widow Rumble, having a laugh in the Green Dragon, watching a sunset or appreciating the shape and colour of a tater) was the "love of God". To me, this removes your self from the experience and from the connection with the world.

[Ruinel]

... And now, that I have time to revive my thread.
Damn great discussions, btw!!! Sorry I missed some of it. I should really give up sleep.

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
...seventh day adventists ... dislike for Catholics ...are EXTREMELY bible based and believe that the end of the world is coming soon .... so, my mom being Cahtolic, and my dad and his family being adventist, I'm sure you can see where problems would arise!

Yes! I see where the problems would lie. Always make up your own mind about things. Although I no longer follow Catholicism, I'm sure we can all agree that the Pope is certainly not the anti-Christ.


AE: great site, I think I've actually visited that site before (http://www.2think.org/hii/atheism.shtml), I just can't remember when. Great quotes also.

[hectorberlioz]

I know this is a little wacky but I 've started seening some similarities between harry potter and the ati-christ.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
I think that athiests get so riled up, that athieism is almost(and might as well) a religion.
I'm a christian myself.

I'd like to know what atheists you know personally that get "riled up". I don't. I've been in groups where someone who is religious (100% of the time Christian) wants to pester me about why I don't believe in a god, why I've rejected god's love, bla bla bla... it's quite annoying. Do I ever pester them with such questions that would make them defend their positions? No, I do not. Do I ever recruit Christians to be Atheists? No, I do not. So, it's really not the Atheists that get in people's faces, it's the Christians. No offense intended.

[hectorberlioz]

I'm sorry Ruinel, but no, Athiests do get riled up about why god doesnt exist et cetera. I've seen it.
My point was that athiests get so riled, and believe what they believe(that god does not exist), that athiesm might as well be a religion.

[Artanis]

Well I don't think we should hold it against the Christians that they're trying to save us non-believers from Hell.

Originally posted by The Gaffer
there's a bit of a suspicion that agnostics are just kind of hedging their bets in case they snuff it and turn up at the Pearly Gates with St Peter giving them a dirty look!

Well said. Now I must question my own motives.

[hectorberlioz]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Gaffer
there's a bit of a suspicion that agnostics are just kind of hedging their bets in case they snuff it and turn up at the Pearly Gates with St Peter giving them a dirty look!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lol, yes very well said.

[Brill]

Nothing indicates to me the existence of any sort of supernatural, paranormal deity, but I also do not see any reason to reject the idea of such a being as impossible

That remind me of a saying I used to hear (forgive me if it isn't correct, it's been a looong time): Je ne crois pas, mais j'ai mon respect.

Just means: I don't believe in that, but I have respect for it just in case.

Kinda like a blanket. It reminds me of the Romans (?) and their UNKNOWN GOD.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
I'm sorry Ruinel, but no, Athiests do get riled up about why god doesnt exist et cetera. I've seen it.
My point was that athiests get so riled, and believe what they believe(that god does not exist), that athiesm might as well be a religion.

Ok, I'll just concede that you know someone that happens to be Atheist, that gets riled up.

[hectorberlioz]

umm. youve got riled up too in the "offshoot discussion" thread.

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

So, it's really not the Atheists that get in people's faces, it's the Christians.

I have to admit, no atheist ever came knocking at my door with pamplets in hand. On the other hand, you can't say that atheists don't have a voice: the ACLU! (jk )

[Ruinel]

Actually, I have a problem with organizations denying someone the right to free worship or display something that represents their chosen religion. I just would not want them using my tax dollars to do so. For example, I have a problem with the schools in the area giving Christian groups a place to hold services for worshipping on Sundays, unless they pay rent to the school district. That's my electricity, and water they are using in that building, paid for with my tax dollars.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
umm. youve got riled up too in the "offshoot discussion" thread.

I didn't get 'riled up' over Atheism. I had a problem with someone that continued to lump homosexuals in with pedophiles. They are definitely NOT the same thing. And it's only someone who is completely ignorant that would even think that they are.

[hectorberlioz]

I wont carry furthur on about it.