Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Hi, Hasty Ent, I just now saw your post (I was still typing while you posted). I think I partially answered your question in my post that ended up just after yours, and my next post might answer more.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Anduril:
When I say that he cannot be understood, I do not mean that nothing can be understood about him; I mean one cannot understand the workings of His mind. One may understand certain truths about God, but to know the workings of His mind is completely beyond humankind. You know that he is above and beyond mankind simply because mankind does not and cannot understand him.

Using your own reasoning, then God must have the ability, since he can do anything, to prevent himself from lying. Obviously, this could go continously in a circle for a long time, so please refer to my previous statement; the workings of God's mind and the exact specifics of his omnipotence are unable to be understood by mankind.

Hasty Ent:
Notice

If I could call myself, say, a Christian, or a Mussalman, with my own interpretation of the bible or the Koran...For then Hihdu, Christian and Mussalman would be synonymous terms

While I mean no disrespect to Gandhi, in this quote he says that if he can interpret the Bible to mean what he wants it to be, then he is a Christian; he also says that they are the same in this case, which of course they are not. Therefore, it would seem that he does not really believe in the Christian faith; he may believe that there are good parts of it, but he does not believe in the faith.

Rian: Hurrah! Reinforcements!

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Rian. . .
I like that idea, not because it makes god(s) exist on our whims, but because I think that gods our really our own creations anyway--that is my belief as an atheist. Of course, I don't actually believe that gods exist anyway, I just liked the idea. Perhaps I just read too much Neil Gaiman, where I got the idea from in the first place

I guess I'm just going to get boring and repetetive here, but I know no other way to attempt to get my point across. It's the tendency of people to say that their religion is the truth and everyone else is wrong that bothers me the most. While you Christians out there insist that yours is the right way and everyone else is wrong and bound for hell, people of other religions tend to say the same thing, neh? So who's right? Of course, you think you're right, I think I'm right. . .And I think we all believe that with relatively equal strength. What I just wish we could say is that "maybe I'm right and maybe you are, and we won't find out until we die, neh?" I'm willing to say this, anyway.

And no, by saying that, I am not implying doubt in my own beliefs. I believe very firmly that when we die, we're dead, that's the end. No heaven, no hell, that's just it. Furthermore, I do not fear death, but that's something else anyway. . .but the point is, what I am saying by that 'maybe' is that I have my beliefs, you have yours, I respect that, I think I'm right, but who am I, a mere mortal () to say?

As to my question about why we cannot simply get along. . .well, your answer, Rian, is according to what your faith says. Buddha says something similiar, neh? Well, perhaps we are too greedy/selfish/sinful to get along. But I do believe we can make an effort toward general understanding. I tend to be rather cynical sometimes and I have little faith in humans, that we can actually get along, but I think there may still be hope.

[Rían]

Coney, I just love your little sub-titles

Well, I now have my cup of tea with cream and sugar with me *sip - ahhhh!* (we don't have any athiests in our house, just English Breakfast ), and I'll try to put some of my thoughts down in this post about Hell.

*looks back to Coney's original question* Oh, actually it was "what do Christians think happens to non-Christians after they die?"

Well, the short answer would be (and I'll put it in blunt language on purpose, because let's go ahead and deal with the "worst" version of it) that they spend eternity in Hell. However, the 'short' answer doesn't always express the entire truth of a situation. For example, say our dog Buddy is out front playing with our kids, who are playing with their new remote-controlled toy car, which (being boys!) they chase the dog with, and he gets nicked by one of them; my daughter runs in and tells me "Buddy just got hit by a car!"; true statement, but doesn't convey the whole truth, does it? So let me expand a bit.

One major concept that needs to get straightened out, and that some of the Christians here have been explaining, is that there is an absolute truth out there about how things are. Now we, for our own reasons (which we can get into later, if you would like to, but right now there's lots of other things I'd like to deal with first ) believe that the Bible is the correct statement of the absolute truth. Many other religions have some of the truth contained in them - the parts that agree with the Bible. But the Bible is the inspired Word of God and contains the truth.

What are some of the truths in the Bible?

• 1. That God is all the omni's - omniscient, omnipotent, etc.
  2. That God created the world (and the universe too, for that matter).
  3. That God is just and holy.
  4. That ALL people are sinners (that is, they fall short of God's standard of behavior - to varying degrees, but all fall short). (found in Romans 3:23)
  5. That the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23)
  6. That God loves us so much that even while we were still sinners, He sent Christ to die in our place (i.e., to pay the penalty for us) (Romans 5:8)
  7. That the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:23)
  8. That there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1) (Romans is such a great book )
  9. That there is salvation through NO ONE ELSE but Jesus (Acts 4:12)
  10. That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved (Romans 10:10)
  11. That God desires that NO ONE should perish (2 Peter 3:9); however, He has given to us the free will to make our own choice, and we may choose against Him if we so desire. (IOW, you cannot FORCE someone to accept a gift).

There's lots more, of course, but these are some of the more pertinent ones to the topic.

SO - what is Heaven? Well, I guess one way of describing it would be Heaven is where God is revealed to reign in majesty and power. It is also a place where "He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (Revelation 21:3,4).

BTW, God IS in authority over everything; the fact that some people don't acknowledge that doesn't change that it is true (i.e., people can say "I don't believe that Blair is PM!", but that doesn't change the fact that he's the one currently at 10 Downing street, does it?) (gee, I hope I got that address right! ) He is withholding his judicial authority to some degree from the people on earth to give people time to seek Him; however, as Creator, He has complete authority over all His creation, whether they like it or not. And this is a good thing, because He is a good and loving God (but not in the senile, grandfatherly way that some people think of him! "oh, as long as everyone has fun, it's fine with Me!" It is in a beautiful and powerful way, and a way that is not content with leaving His loved ones in their sin.

(Rats, this post is too long, I have to split it up ...)

[Rían]

Now a Christian is one who has acknowledged Jesus as Lord, voluntarily and joyfully - IOW, he/she has CHOSEN to accept God's free gift of Christ paying the penalty of their sin for them. A non-Christian is one who does NOT acknowledge that fact, and basically wishes to be their own God. To a Christian, therefore, heaven is an incredibly joyful place - as King David said, "Better is one day in Your courts than thousands elsewhere!". To a non-Christian, it would be a place of horror - they have chosen to defy God, deny His Existence, declare that they themselves are god. In the end, the Bible says that EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. The Christians will do it joyfully and gratefully; the non-Christians I think will do it in anger and defiance; they will not even want to be there.

I think the best summary I've ever heard on the subject goes something like this - "The Christian will joyfully say to God - "Thy will be done!"; to the non-Christian, God will say sorrowfully "thy will be done....." and their will is to NOT be in the place where God is revealed to reign in glory, so Hell is the only other option - it is where God isn't.

I hope this helps you out some - it is indeed a sorrowful topic, but the option to choose self over God, that God gave to us, is the thing that makes love of God meaningful. IOW, we are not puppets created by a puppet maker and forced to love Him. There was a big discussion of free will a few months ago in the "Iluvatar created Melkor evil" thread in the ME forum if anyone wants to read it; I posted extensively over there, along with some other Christians. This is just my first cut at the topic, and I'm sure I left a lot out, and I probably didn't state some other things very well, so please feel free to ask me to clarify or expand, and I'll do the best I can. You guys are worth the effort, because you are very valuable in God's eyes, and in mine.

[Rían]

Hey, Gwaimir, I like your posts! Does your name have anything to do with Gwaihir the eagle?

by EG
I guess I'm just going to get boring and repetetive here, but I know no other way to attempt to get my point across. It's the tendency of people to say that their religion is the truth and everyone else is wrong that bothers me the most. While you Christians out there insist that yours is the right way and everyone else is wrong and bound for hell, people of other religions tend to say the same thing, neh? So who's right? Of course, you think you're right, I think I'm right. . .And I think we all believe that with relatively equal strength. What I just wish we could say is that "maybe I'm right and maybe you are, and we won't find out until we die, neh?" I'm willing to say this, anyway.

Well, perhaps we have a misunderstanding of words - I think that you HAVE gotten your point across. However, I still disagree with it. Maybe what you mean by "get my point across" is that I (or anyone else) change my mind and agree with it; is that it? I'm sorry to say (in the sense that I like to agree with people that I like ) that I just cannot agree with it; it doesn't ring true to me, and Christianity does, and has consistently, for almost 30 years.

As to my question about why we cannot simply get along. . .well, your answer, Rian, is according to what your faith says. Buddha says something similiar, neh? Well, perhaps we are too greedy/selfish/sinful to get along. But I do believe we can make an effort toward general understanding. I tend to be rather cynical sometimes and I have little faith in humans, that we can actually get along, but I think there may still be hope.

Yes, that's the context of this thread, what our beliefs are. Buddha indeed says something very similar, and therefore, that part is true . And we certainly are terribly wrong to NOT make a tremendous effort to get along, in terms of being kind and helpful and loving to others (and BTW, the Bible comes down very hard on those whose faith is only 'intellectual', and that does not come out in good works to others). However, it is NOT right and it is NOT loving to deny what you believe to be true and essential to the well-being of others. (ps - I love your 'neh'!)

[Rían]

*sings "where shall I begin?...."*

OK, some quickies -

Gwaimir, I had no problem AT ALL understanding what you meant when you were talking about God being beyond our comprehension. I saw how Andúril picked apart your statement due to it being a little less precise than it could have been. You might want to word it something like "People cannot completely understand God", since his pick seemed to be with the "complete understanding" part, which was ONE WAY that your statement could have been read. However, I think it was an unnatural and forced way, and I imagine most people understood what you meant.

I think we can certainly understand certain aspects of God to some degree. God Himself tells us about Himself in the Bible - why would He do that if we couldn't understand it? Biblical writers say things about God that are confirmed in the Bible - this shows understanding. The Bible also clearly says that He is beyond our comprehension - not completely outside of it, but "higher" - "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9) Just like my cute little doggie (alright, so he's 80 pounds, but he's a big baby!) understands that I take care of him and play with him, but doesn't understand why I take him to that awful smelly place where some lady pokes him with a sharp thing - I'm beyond his understanding in this area.

[Rían]

****** please do not respond to this post yet - one of the kids just got home 20 minutes early and I'm not done with it! I have to post it or I'll lose it, though. I'll finish up in a few minutes *******

Further edit - well, I just used up the 20 free minutes I had by putting kid #3 to bed - I'll just have to copy this post into a new post tomorrow or Monday and finish it then! Life with kids .... Never a dull moment

Originally posted by Andúril
The term "all-powerful" refers to strong omnipotence - the ability to perform any describable (syntactically possible) action. An entity who is all-powerful can do all things.

The pool of abilities that are open to such a being include such illogical things as creating a vegetable that is both fully an apple and granadilla at the same time. In light of this, the concept of weak omnipotence was adopted: the ability to perform all actions without extending to illogical scenarios. A weakly omnipotent being cannnot create a vegetable that is both fully an apple and granadilla at the same time.

A strongly omnipotent being can lie. A weakly omnipotent being's pool of abilities depends on

• The amount of independant illogical scenarios that exist, and
• the attributes of the being

What was intended by apologists as a handy concept to explain away the blatant problems of the illogic involved, this concept unfortunately encompasses far more than "God", and is now practically useless as a stand-alone characteristic.

It is clear that you are talking about strong omnipotence (unless you actually meant "God is kinda All-Powerful").[list=1][*]If God is all-powerful, then he can lie.[*]God cannot lie.[*]Therefore, God is not all-powerful.[/list=1]If additional premise a: "God is all-powerful" is included in the syllogism, then "God" becomes an illogical concept.

Weak omnipotence can help you out.

*sings "where can I begin?" again*
There are so many things that I disagree with here, Andúril, and I only have a few more minutes before the kids get home and the bed-time party starts! Oh well, let's see how fast I can type....

I think that as far as the discussion between the two of us goes, we're going to end up just saying we disagree with each other. We can try to discuss a little longer, but I think it's going to end up that way. One of the main problems here is that you are introducing terminology like it is an accepted fact that everyone agrees with; for example, "strong" and "weak" omnipotence. I completely disagree with the usage of those terms. And I will not accept them on your authority, because as I said earlier, you do not have any authority over me.

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Isn't that the point? If we are to atone for our sins isn't the best way to do it to do good? But you should do good with constantly keeping a score. Or is sinning and going to confess in church every week so much better?

Atonement for sins isn't solely through doing good. You need to repent -- realize you're doing something wrong and ask God to help you not to do it anymore. 'Keeping score' would be pointless, because no one is perfect and the bad will outweigh the good. But you realize that you are going to sin and when you do, you need to confess what you have done to God and ask forgiveness.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Khamûl
Atonement for sins isn't solely through doing good. You need to repent -- realize you're doing something wrong and ask God to help you not to do it anymore. 'Keeping score' would be pointless, because no one is perfect and the bad will outweigh the good. But you realize that you are going to sin and when you do, you need to confess what you have done to God and ask forgiveness.

And I would go a bit further and say that WE cannot atone for our sins, but Christ atoned for our sins, and we accept what He did for us through faith.

However, having been saved, the "doing good" part is the natural and proper "fruit" of our salvation - i.e., the natural consequence of our atonement and faith in God. And we "do good" out of obedience and love to God. And I absolutely agree with what Khamul said - "you realize that you are going to sin and when you do, you need to confess what you have done to God and ask forgiveness." - that's very important, and God clearly commands that in 1 John 1:9, and it's for our good.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

Well, perhaps we have a misunderstanding of words - I think that you HAVE gotten your point across. However, I still disagree with it. Maybe what you mean by "get my point across" is that I (or anyone else) change my mind and agree with it; is that it? I'm sorry to say (in the sense that I like to agree with people that I like ) that I just cannot agree with it; it doesn't ring true to me, and Christianity does, and has consistently, for almost 30 years.

Hmm. . .I think what I meant by attempting to 'get my point across' is that I felt others weren't understanding what I said--not that I expect you to agree with me suddenly! Either that, or I hadn't felt I'd said it clearly enough yet so that it made sense to me. Is all.

Yes, that's the context of this thread, what our beliefs are. Buddha indeed says something very similar, and therefore, that part is true . And we certainly are terribly wrong to NOT make a tremendous effort to get along, in terms of being kind and helpful and loving to others (and BTW, the Bible comes down very hard on those whose faith is only 'intellectual', and that does not come out in good works to others). However, it is NOT right and it is NOT loving to deny what you believe to be true and essential to the well-being of others. (ps - I love your 'neh'!)

I don't think I said we ought to deny what we believe, at all! Well. . .maybe I did, in a way, but that's not exactly what I meant. This is all rather complicated, I think, and difficult to explain, so forgive me if I'm not 'speaking' clearly.
I think what I'm trying to express here is I believe we ought to have a sense of. . .I guess. . .humility in terms of our beliefs. NOT denying your beliefs, that's not what I mean! Rather, just accept the fact that we won't know until we die. That you are sure you're right, but not to try to press your beliefs and your religion on others. Instead of telling people they will go to Hell if they do not accept Jesus at their Lord and Savior, just enjoy your own faith in God, and leave others to their own religion. I know you might think that it is doing a kindness to 'warn' people that they will go to hell if they do not accept Jesus, but I frankly find it rather rude. I don't think it's compromising your beliefs to NOT tell people this, rather it's being. . .polite. Does that make sense?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Khamûl
Atonement for sins isn't solely through doing good. You need to repent -- realize you're doing something wrong and ask God to help you not to do it anymore. 'Keeping score' would be pointless, because no one is perfect and the bad will outweigh the good. But you realize that you are going to sin and when you do, you need to confess what you have done to God and ask forgiveness.

*bangs head against the wall* Off course you shouldn't keep score, I just typed 'with' where I wanted to put 'without' Fne... My typing skils aren't improving. Shame on me. I'll edit.

[Earniel]

I like that idea, not because it makes god(s) exist on our whims, but because I think that gods our really our own creations anyway--that is my belief as an atheist. Of course, I don't actually believe that gods exist anyway, I just liked the idea. Perhaps I just read too much Neil Gaiman, where I got the idea from in the first place

Sounds like a Pratchett idea too. Have you read 'Small Gods'?

The old complaint of "well, what of those people on a desert island somewhere that never heard of Jesus? How can they be saved?" is not a valid complaint, for Abraham (who came WAY before Jesus showed up on earth) was stated in the Bible to have been made righteous (which is what 'saved' means) through his faith. The Bible states that everyone who is saved is saved [by faith, through Jesus, but it is not limited to just repeating the "sinner's prayer" from some pamphlet (I think it would be a fairly safe bet to say Abraham didn't say the sinner's prayer from a pamphlet but we have it on God's authority that he is saved.)

Alright so how about the people that lived on a deserted island AT THE TIME of Abraham? Have they been saved?

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Sounds like a Pratchett idea too. Have you read 'Small Gods'?

I have read 'Small Gods.' Same idea, yes. I liked that book Pratchett and Gaiman wrote a book together, too. Have you read Good Omens? That's one of my favorite books And this is bordering on getting off-topic, although it does have a little to do with religion. . .in a rather irreverant sort of way. . .oh well, see my signature, eh?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Alright so how about the people that lived on a deserted island AT THE TIME of Abraham? Have they been saved?

LOL! Good one, Eärniel!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
I don't think it's compromising your beliefs to NOT tell people this, rather it's being. . .polite. Does that make sense?

Yes, I totally understand what you're saying. Let me ask you a question (and PLEASE answer completely truthfully and elaborate as necessary - don't worry about hurting my feelings) - do you feel that I have been polite to you?

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, I totally understand what you're saying. Let me ask you a question (and PLEASE answer completely truthfully and elaborate as necessary - don't worry about hurting my feelings) - do you feel that I have been polite to you?

Hmm. . .Yes, I do feel that you have been polite to me, on this thread and always, elsewhere Personally, I don't mind much when people tell me I'll go to hell because I don't accept Jesus. . .and I mean no offense here, (but here i go being irreverant and offensive) but I actually find it rather amusing. (that was probably not so polite, neh?) I simply find it generally impolite to attempt to impose your religion on others and tell them they're wrong. Don't have anything against believing they're wrong, just when they go tell people they are. And this is, by no means, a personal attack. I enjoy this sort of debate, although I tend to get a bit carried away sometimes. . .and frustrated when I can't figure out how to say what I feel in a way that makes sense so people don't misinterpret my words. .. but anyway, I think you, Rian, have been polite, and I thank you for this debate. Hopefully it can continue in a way we both can enjoy, neh?

[Coney]

Thanks for the reply Rian

*tiptoes away from the thread........read quite a bit of the bible last night.....doesn't like it, not at all*

*Will keeping reading the thread tho*

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Andúril
*snip*

I do not deny that strong atheism is a belief. But such belief is not applicable to weak atheists.

*snip*

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Rian: Thank you.

Nope, not intended to be connected to Gwaihir, just the same language.

Yes, I noticed that myself; hopefully I'll be more specific in the future.