Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Since zavron, the thread starter, requested no arguments, and some of us were starting to post some lengthy discussions/arguments, I decided to start this thread to

• *(1)honor zavron's request, and
  *(2) provide a forum to continue the discussion (if those involved wish to).
  *(3) **EDIT 6/6/03** to provide a place to discuss religious questions in general, since the original debate is now over

I'll repost my first post of that thread:



RÃ*an's first post on the 'what religion are you' thread:

What religeon are you? What Race are you? where did your family originate?

I'm a Christian, and my background (what I know of it) is English, Irish and Scottish. I'm descended from Robert the Bruce of Scotland, who, BTW, was grossly misrepresented in the movie Braveheart (Scottish historical societies are up in arms about the movie, which got several important and well-known facts about him wrong!)

The Douglas Adams quote makes sense if you believe that there is no absolute truth; that one may pick a religion (or atheism, for that matter, which is also a belief system) according to taste, like clothing in a store to try on for a bit and change according to mood. If, however, you believe that absolute truth DOES exist, which is a position that makes a lot of sense (for example, many tenets in different religions are conflicting; how can they BOTH be correct?) then it makes sense to be "serious" about a religion that you believe contains the truth. I believe that Christianity is the correct statement of how things really are, so I suppose you could say I'm "serious" about it.

However, if you mean "serious" as just grumpy and frowning, I think it's unfortunate that some "religious" people are that way. There's plenty of joy and beauty and fun in Christianity, however, so I, personally, am not walking around totally serious all day or anything like that and I think it is wrong to do so (in fact, in the Bible, we are told to rejoice and be thankful and we have plenty of good reasons to do both!)

[Rían]

Anduril, if you want to continue the discussion, do you want to repost your posts, or should I just refer back to them?

[Andúril]

This link should be sufficient to get us started.

[Shadowfax]

I am a Christian, just as RÃ*an is. I believe in the Bible and that the Bible is God's Words put on paper by men. Why do I believe that an old book written over a period of thousands of years is the word of God? Because it says it is. I have no other reason, and I know many people will say that this is not a reason, but it is. And I'm not ashamed of that.

I use the Bible as a "handbook" on how to live life according to God's will; actually, on how to live life in general! There is advice in there on every subject and the One who wrote it has faced struggles 10 times worse than anything I've gone through, so I know I can He understands me completely.

I love the Lord my God and nothing will ever be able to stop me from saying that! And I never will stop saying that, even when I die, because I know that I am not dying, but entering into a new life in Heaven with Him forever.

[Rían]

I became a Christian in my early teens, too, Shadowfax (IIRC, you're in your teens) and it only gets better. Not easier, by any means, in terms of 'hey, there's no problems in my life!', but always better, because God is always there for you in the midst of the problems, and we know He uses them for our growth. And as you get closer to Him thru prayer and reading your Bible, you come to love Him more (see my sig ) I've gone thru some tremendously difficult times, including my middle son being born with some major physical handicaps (which I knew about when I was pregnant and obviously chose not to abort), but I can truly say God is good and in control. And I'll look forward to meeting you in heaven! The difficult times here are just a tiny bit of time compared to eternity.

And BTW, the Bible is in a class by itself (and at the top of the class) when it comes to ancient religious literature - for example, the first records of Christ's life were written down within 30-60 years of his death, as compared to hundreds and hundreds of years later for Buddha and Muhammad. So although you became a Christian without comparing the Bible to other religious texts, you can know that it's really solid. There's lots of other info like that available, but let me get back on this thread's topic. I think I'll start on a new post, though.

[Rían]

OK Anduril, just out of sheer morbid curiosity as to how long we can not understand each other - I still don't understand your *snip* thing. You *snipped* the following from my post:

from RÃ*an's post
(or atheism, for that matter, which is also a belief system)

When I asked you why, you gave the following reply:

from Anduril's reply
I *snip* text that is not applicable to my reply.

The only 2 possibilities that I see are:

• *(1) you think that my post was in 'reply' to one of your previous posts (however, it seems clear that it wasn't, since you were talking about Eru), and you thought it was not 'applicable' to what you wrote in your post, so you *snipped* it out;
  *(2) you disagreed with that aspect of my post, so you decided to *snip* it out and comment on how you disagreed with it; if this is the case, I would disagree with your use of the word 'applicable' - I think a better wording would be "I disagree with this statement from your post'. I still don't see how 'applicable' applies to that situation!

Anyway, as I've said before on Entmoot, it's just amazing to me how difficult typed communication is sometimes, and I was just curious if one of the two items above was the correct scenario, or if something different happened. A silly curiosity on my part, but I thought I would see if we could clear up this minor point before we got into something bigger. If you don't feel like elaborating anymore, just send me a rolling-eyes smilie and we'll drop it

[Rían]

(ps - if I disappear from Entmoot for a few days, please be patient - it means that my hard disk went down in flames and I'll have to get it fixed - it's been really acting up lately )

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
OK Anduril, just out of sheer morbid curiosity as to how long we can not understand each other - I still don't understand your *snip* thing. You *snipped* the following from my post:

*snip*

The *snip* marker indicates text that has not made it into the quote. It is text that has been disgarded, since I have no interest in replying to it.

As you can see, I snipped your quote:

from RÃ*an's post
(or atheism, for that matter, which is also a belief system)

The amount of text that is snipped depends on the next quoted text. You will see that I have essentially snipped both of your quotes, since my next quote contains your subjective bifurcation.

More:
The only 2 possibilities that I see are:

Additionally, if I have used the *snip* marker at the beginning and end of a quote, that has nothing to do with the content between the markers. The *snips* represent text prior to, and following, the quoted text.

More:
*snip*

Anyway, as I've said before on Entmoot, it's just amazing to me how difficult typed communication is sometimes, and I was just curious if one of the two items above was the correct scenario, or if something different happened.

Something different happened.

More:
A silly curiosity on my part, but I thought I would see if we could clear up this minor point before we got into something bigger.

Nothing wrong with that.

More:
If you don't feel like elaborating anymore, just send me a rolling-eyes smilie and we'll drop it

Sometimes dropping smilies hurts, but it depends on the shoes you're wearing.

[markedel]

I always find debates among Christians fascinating. As a dedicated, believing 9if not particularly religious) Jew it's interesting see Christian introspection. It's usually Judaism that the religion filled with the most angst over itself.

[Rían]

What are your favorite passages in the Scriptures, markedel?

[Rían]

Thanks for your patience re the *snip* thing, Anduril - I think I see where the misunderstanding was. (Not that it was very important, but as I said, I was just rather intrigued that the two of us could misunderstand each other for so long!)
-----------------------

Now I'll respond to some other parts of your posts:

This is one section:

from Anduril's post, with reference numbers added by RÃ*an:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More:
If we are to venture into rational discourse, I would ask that you post rational replies,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Explain to me why my reply was irrational. Thanks in advance.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More:
instead of using insulting expressions such as "straw men"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(2)I don't see anything insulting about it.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More:
and then not even bothering to offer reasons why you believe what I said to be a "straw man".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(3)I thought it was obvious.

My answers:
(1) - I already did explain why I thought your reply was irrational - the explanation was at the end of the sentence! Didn't you see it?. If I write a sentence, would you please consider the sentence as a whole (or at least quote it as a whole), since I wrote it as I did for a good reason.
(2) - I felt that it was insulting because I didn't feel that my statement was logically weak (and I still don't) and I feel that even if you thought so, there are more polite ways to indicate it. However, your manner of speaking is certainly up to you.
(3) - It is not obvious to me (and I believe to many others, too). Would you please explain your reasoning.

OK - I'm done editing! Respond if you would like to.

[Evenstar1400]

im christian. i dont like how everyone is going on about how bad we are and how much we sin. im tiered of being told everyone is bad and does everything wrong (even though we do at times) i also cant stay awake during mass. whats the point of going if you dont learn anything?

by the way........ what does angst mean?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Anduril
Sometimes dropping smilies hurts, but it depends on the shoes you're wearing.

LOL! *Anduril and RÃ*an climb a tall virtual tower and drop assorted smilies upon the unsuspecting people below. However, they are cute and fluffy and don't hurt anyone.*

[Rían]

Originally posted by Evenstar1400
im christian. i dont like how everyone is going on about how bad we are and how much we sin. im tiered of being told everyone is bad and does everything wrong (even though we do at times) i also cant stay awake during mass. whats the point of going if you dont learn anything?

by the way........ what does angst mean?

Do you mean you think everyone is going on about how bad we are in this thread, or just people around you in general go on about this, or what? That would be pretty depressing if that's all I heard about in my church. I think some people discuss the 'bad' aspect of things too much, but the idea behind it is that a sick person won't seek a cure, if they don't know they're sick - does that make sense?

Now the Bible teaches that all people sin, but not that everyone 'does everything wrong'. Just that we fall short of God's standard, and we can't achieve His standard on our own. But the Good News is that through Jesus's help and because He died for us on the cross, we can be made righteous in God's eyes, and thus be in heaven with Him for all eternity. And that's really happy news! And what's even better is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, He gives you lots of help with day-to-day life, and you can pray and read your Bible to get lots of good help, too.

I've been to Mass before (although I'm not Catholic), and it can be hard to stay awake! Perhaps you can take your Bible with you and start reading and taking notes if you get sleepy. There's plenty of good stuff to learn, so maybe you can look at Mass as a special time set aside for you to learn more about God and get closer to Him. Good luck - let me know if I can be of any help to you

ps - 'angst' means "a gloomy feeling of generalized anxiety and depression'.

[Elf Girl]

Am dropping into this discussion to make a quick comment:

In my opinion, Eru is God and the Ainur are angels, so that religon is just christianity with different names. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

[Rían]

In The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Tolkien writes that Eru is God (i.e., the God of the Bible) and that the Ainur are angelic beings. He writes that LoTR is set in this world, but in an imaginary time that was way before Jesus was born.

[Elf Girl]

Edit: Post made by accident.

[Coney]

I asked this question in the original thread but recieved no reply *sob*

What do Christians believe happens to a non-Christian after they die?

Are we soul-less or are our souls cast into Limbo etc..

I am certainly no biblical scholar but I have read the King James version of the bible a couple of times and found no "real" answer

There are many devout Christians on the 'moot, any of you care to furnish this lil' Coney with an answer?

Footnote: Good on yer fer starting this thread Rian ......... I have many, varied, questions

[Rían]

ElfGirl - did you copy your post because you thought perhaps I didn't see it? I posted the info from "Letters" to confirm what you said "Letters" is a great read, I highly recommend it.

Coney - Well, that may be a quick question, but I can't give you a quick answer, especially because I'm in the midst of making dinner But I will be glad to give it my best shot when I get some time - possibly tonight, but more likely tomorrow, or possibly even Monday - family obligations take precedence over Entmoot, and for questions like that, I have to take some time to formulate my answer (I'm like Renille - the mistress of the quick post, and luckily I'm a ferociously fast typist - most of my posts are made on the run between various duties ). Life is complex - if religions had quick and easy answers to difficult questions, I would be very suspicious of them! Anyone else care to answer Coney while I'm busy with the family? (and I didn't answer it over there on purpose - I'm trying to keep long posts away from that thread, that's why I started up this one).

[Shadowfax]

Coney:

In answer to your questions here are my answers, as a Christian, based on what I have found in the Bible:

1- What happens to non-Christians when they die?
I believe that anyone who does not know God and have a personal relationship with Jesus will spend the rest of eternity in Hell, which I believe is not so much a physical place, but more of a spiritual place; a place totally removed from God, and while some people say they don't care about 'being with God', they will when they find out how it feels to be away from forever, in eternal damnation.

2- Are we soul-less or are our souls cast into Limbo?
I believe that everyone has a soul that right now lives on earth in a body of flesh, and that when we die, all souls will get a new body, and will go either to Heaven or Hell; there is no "Limbo" or "Purgatory".

I hope this helps you Coney, and I would love to see you one day in Heaven (God says that we will be able to recognize each other in Heaven!). And if you have any more questions feel free to ask, and if other Christians want to elaborate on what I've said, feel free too, because I know there is much more to answering these questions.