Beren and the Silmaril

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I was sitting at work today thinking about the Silmarils when a question came to mind. The Silmarils were hallowed by Varda so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them. Yet, in the chapter titled "Of Beren and Luthien", it states that "he drew forth the knife Angrist: and from the iron claws that held it he cut a Silmaril. As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp: but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not." If no mortals could touch the Silmarils, then how was Beren able to touch one and not be burned by it?

[AndMorgothCame.]

Sorry to see no one helped you out with this one, Belwen. I will have a go at it.

If you are quoting the book exactly, which it seems you are, I would say that Tolkien at one point was thinking the same as you, and therefore he wrote: "It suffered his touch and hurt him not." So as to justify the 'mortal flesh' rule. The one point I can come up with is that he was among a descended Maiar (Luthien), and they had the favor of divinity on their side.
Both Luthien and Beren acted above all laws of Middle Earth, since nothing seemed to hinder them, and not going after the jewel in greed, but rather love, he was allowed to carry it. They were motivated above the Doom of Mandos, the Doom of the Noldor, and the Oath of Feanor. They were motivated out of love.

I don't know. Whaddya think?

[jammi567]

Either that, or Eru planned for that to be allowed, as it ultimatly helped to defeat Morgoth in the end, by allowing that guy to reach Valinor.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Thats kind of a broad statement, Jammi. Eru could have planned everything, or rather, the way I like to think, he gave free will to all, though still subtly governing certain devices of Ea. Did Eru already know all of this was going to happen? The questions can keep being asked, and keep being left as unanswerable.

Even though he did at first fill the void, he did not create the trees, he did not create the Silmarils, and he did not hallow them. Though he is omnipotent, I think he left this tale and its treachery up to the barers of the burden.

[Alcuin]

Beren and Lúthien were both dead when they reached Valinor. Beren died in Doriath, slain by Carcharoth; Lúthien bade him wait for her in the Halls of Mandos. When Beren arrived in Mandos, he refused to leave Arda – apparently something no Man had ever before been able to do. Lúthien died of grief (Elves do not die of disease or old age, but they may die of wounds or grief, a kind of spiritual or psychological wounding) and there put forward their situation before Námo Mandos and moved him to pity, who was never before moved, and who brought their case came before Manwë and all the Valar. Beren and Lúthien were decidedly not the usual circumstance.

The Silmarils, however, are themselves sentient. Not the silma, the stuff of which they are made, but the light within them, the living light of the Two Trees. They burned Morgoth when he murdered Finwë and stole them; they burned Maedhros and Maglor, who could not tolerate them, disposed of them, and perished. The Silmaril that Beren and Lúthien took tolerated Beren and Lúthien both; burned Carcharoth into madness, even literally burning the inside of his body; but tolerated Dior EluchÃ*l, Elwing, and Eärendil.

Now, Beren was mortal, and his son Dior EluchÃ*l was fully mortal. (If he was not, then Elwing was not Half-elven, but three-quarter Elven; and Elros and Elrond were likewise not Half-elven, but five-eighths Elven.) The Silmaril tolerated not only Beren but Dior. The case of the Half-elven was not settled, at least by the Valar, until after Elwing and Eärendil were brought before the Valar. (Mandos argued that they should be mortal, as was Dior; remember, he brought Dior’s parents’ case to the Council of the Valar; but Manwë gave the judgment after meditative consultation with Eru.) Perhaps the Silmaril “knewâ€� the disposition of mortality of Elwing and Eärendil; but I think that it merely accepted them as “goodâ€�, particularly if the alternative was seizure by the Sons of Fëanor following their treacherous assault on the Elves and Men living at the Mouths of Sirion.

That Silmaril was also handled by Elu Thingol, and probably by Melian, too, though we are not told she handled it. It was much handled by the Dwarven smiths of Nogrod, who slew Thingol in Menegroth, and then by their kinsmen from Nogrod who sacked Menegroth; but we are never told if they suffered any ill effects from it. (They suffered some pretty ill effects from Beren, Dior, the Green-elves, and the Ents at Sarn Athrad, the “stony ford� over the River Gelion; but that cannot be directly attributed to the power of the Silmaril.)

Long story short: I think the Silmarilli decided who they did and did not like. If they liked you, they let you handle them; if not, they burned you.

But I could be wrong…


(Of course, this brings up another idea: could Fëanor have ever handled them without pain had he managed to regain one in Middle-earth?)

[Valandil]

That's interesting Alcuin.

I think the silmarils would not have burned Feanor, no matter what - since he created them. If they detected something in him they did not like, I think still they would react in a sympathetic way - if there really was some sort of sentience there. Of course I cannot say for sure.

Interesting about the Dwarves. But the particular Dwarves who handled it (their smiths) may not have been as malevolent as those who actually slew Thingol - and may have been better received. Or of course, they may have used tongs. Or had the 'junior apprentice' do all the handling and receiving of burns.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The simplest explation for the conflict, and anything else that does not fit, is that one (or both) of the passages is an error or embelisment added by some bard, transcripter, or translator.
Recall the internal logic and history that the Sil is Bilbo's "Translations from the Elvish", ancient and originally oral traditions that have passed through several hands over THOUSANDS of years, but with the steadying of a few immortal living memories of the times still being around. I had originally thought Bilbo sources were perserved with Elrond's Noldor in Imlandris, but somewhere in HoME, JRRT goes into more detail about their history and how they went through more hands. The bulk of his marterial, even if orginally for Elvish songs, went through the Edain who went to Numenor (where most them were first written down), and then through the Numenorian Kingdoms is Exile, before winding up in Rivendale or wherever Bilbo found them. In particular things that were not witnessed by the Noldor or Edain who survived to tell the tale were more tenuous in their internal reality. Eg either nobody at all or nobody who came back to Numenor or ME from Valinor in the 2nd age had witnessed Tour's and Idril's fate on the attempted voyage to Valinor. This is even relfect in the Text with the passage being prefaced with an "It is said..." and in Letters with an "it is supposed", and I personnaly believe they just eprsihed in the 'Shadowy Seas" and "Eanchanted Isles" and never made it to Valinor, with the story of their ending in the SIL being just a whishful addition by a bard. But even matters directly witnessed have a strong tendancy to be altered, embelished, interpolated, or extrapolated in oral traditions, and a lesser tendency to do so even after being reduced to writing. Se also in HoME JRRT notes of (I forget his name for it) The Noldroian (in exile) orders of history and traditon, which relied on memory and oral transfer, rather than writing, and which were largely wiped out in the wars against Morgoth.
Little if any of the SIL as presented to us in its internal logic was captured in imperishable recordings or omiscient memory and then transcribed to us exactly as it happened.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

The simplest explation for the conflict, and anything else that does not fit, is that one (or both) of the passages is an error or embelisment added by some bard, transcripter, or translator.

Well, that is the explanation Tolkien himself created (published in Sauron Defeated) to explain misunderstandings about the Elves that he deliberately introduced into late versions of “The Drowning of Anadûnê”. Not Bilbo, per se, but mortals who had never known or met any Elves but taken and mangled knowledge about them in subsequent centuries. And Aragorn himself told the hobbits that only Elrond remembered the “Lay of Leithian” aright when Elrond was not the only Elf still in Middle-earth who had met his great-grandparents: even Elvish memories were imperfect.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Dior was an immortal Half-elven. One of his nicknames was even "The Noble Elf", so I'm not sure where you got the idea he was mortal, Alcuin? The term half-elven, I have always assumed, due to its usage, only means that you had Elvish and Human ancestors in recent lineage. I never thought that it mean exactly 50/50 evenly. I doubt Tolkien would get down into fractions just to describe a character, i.e.; Elrond, the One Third Elven! (or whatever the actual fraction would be). Thoughts?

Always sad to read that Dior, the first of the Half-Elven, and also the first to represent the Three Kindreds of Elf, Man and Maiar, died at the age of 36 . . .

I do agree with the possibility of the Silmarils (probably with a piece of Eru's mind) judging who can and can't hold them.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by AndMorgothCame.

Dior was an immortal Half-elven. One of his nicknames was even "The Noble Elf", so I'm not sure where you got the idea he was mortal, Alcuin? The term half-elven, I have always assumed, due to its usage, only means that you had Elvish and Human ancestors in recent lineage. I never thought that it mean exactly 50/50 evenly. I doubt Tolkien would get down into fractions just to describe a character, i.e.; Elrond, the One Third Elven! (or whatever the actual fraction would be). Thoughts?

Always sad to read that Dior, the first of the Half-Elven, and also the first to represent the Three Kindreds of Elf, Man and Maiar, died at the age of 36 . . .

I cannot agree. All the Half-elven were half Elven. The rule that Mandos put forward regarding the half-elves in the Máhanaxar hearing on Eärendil and Elwing was that they were all automatically mortal. Manwë (after consultation with Eru) overruled him and gave each of the half-elves the opportunity to choose among which kindred they would be counted. Elrond’s children, since he himself chose to be counted among the Elves, also had such a choice; at least, Arwen made the same choice as Lúthien.

Now, why would Mandos insist that all the half-elves were mortal? There was, in fact, already a rule: Dior was dead. Dior’s father was a mortal man. Dior’s mother, Lúthien, had already renounced Elven immortality before he was born. Dior was born of two mortals: one was a Man, one was an Elf, but Lúthien had already given up her immortality to be counted among Men for the sake of her love of Beren. Dior may have been a half-elf, but he was born mortal, because both his parents were mortal. Moreover, Dior was already been killed in the Second Kinslaying, the Ruin of Doriath by the Sons of Fëanor, as had his twin sons, Eluréd and ElurÃ*n, Elwing’s brothers. Dior had already come to Mandos, and probably as his parents, had already left Arda.

Finally, you should examine the lineage of the persona. If Dior is mortal, the Elros and Elrond are truly half-Elven. If he isn’t, then they’re not: they’re really more Elven than Men. As to whether Tolkien would pay any attention to such minutia, you should consider his comments (in Letters) on the Dúnedain understanding of what we would call genetics, his especially careful attention to nearly a dozen genealogies; Gandalf’s comments (in “Quest for Erebor� in Unfinished Tales) to his in-story attention to what kind of hobbit he wanted to bring with Thorin & Co.; and last but not least, a non-genealogical, non-genetic detail: Tolkien carefully calculated that the Númenórean calendar was 17.2 seconds slow per annum, while the Gregorian calendar (that we use) is 26 seconds fast. (Letter 176) Tolkien did indeed give that close attention to detail. It’s what gives his fiction the feeling that it’s real.

This is supposed to be an embedded image showing “the lineage of the persona�, but I cannot get the [img] vbCode to work consistently. The string I used is:

[img]http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg[/img]

The result I get is:
http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg

[AndMorgothCame.]

I think we need a second opinion on this, but in the meantime, here is some evidence backing me up. (Good debate, Alcuin, this is getting interesting)

From "The Ruin of Doriath"

"Dior returned no answer to the sons of Feanor; and Celegorm stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Doriath. They came at unawares in the middle of winter, and fought with Dior in the thousand caves; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf".

Now this could've meant the defenders of Dior were slain, but Tolkien does not say defenders, he says "Fought with Dior. . . and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf". Also think of this:
Dior's nickname was Eluchil, which means Elu's Heir. If he was Elu's heir, then he must be an Elf, because no heir to the throne of Elves would EVER be permitted to be a mortal. That's obvious enough.
His other title, Aranel, means Royal Elf.
In some writings in the HoME books (sorry, can't give a more accurate reference because I don't have the books in front of me), Tolkien names Dior as the first of the Peredhil (Halfelven).

In reading this information, I have come across other things that point to him being mortal, but not enough so for me to think otherwise.

Above all of this, though, I believe my strongest point is that there were only 3 Elf/Man marriages. And he was NOT one of them. He married Nimloth, an Elf, and therefore he was Elf.

BUMP!

[Alcuin]

AndMorgothCame., I see your point. Please allow me to correct my argument.

I do not disagree that Dior was Peredhil, Half-elven. On that, we are in complete agreement: his mother was Lúthien, an Elf, and his father Beren was a Man. By definition, Dior was Peredhil, and he himself says that he is the first of the Peredhil.

I must hasten to point out that, in Dior’s lifetime and at his death, no one – Man, Elf, Maia or Vala – knew what it meant to be Peredhil. I have not tried to determine how much time elapsed between the death of Dior and the judgment of Manwë in the Máhanaxar, when the matter was settled on a practical basis, but that several decades passed would not seem out of reason.

The thrust of my argument is this: Dior was completely mortal. As to which of the Two Kindreds he must accept “assignment,� it is clear that Mandos recognized him as mortal and considered him a Man, and so also Mandos considered Eärendil both Man and mortal. In “The Voyage of Eärendil� in Silmarillion,

…after Eärendil had departed [Valimar], … Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said, ‘Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?’

This is presaged in “The Tale of Eärendil� in The Book of Lost Tales – Volume II (HoME II), p 265 (American hardback),

In The Silmarillion (p. 249) Manwë’s judgment was that Eärendil and Elwing ‘shall not walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands’; … it is said in the Name-list to The Fall of Gondolin that he does not come ever further back than Kôr [=Tirion]. The further statement in the Name-list, that if he did so he would die like other Men, ‘so much of the mortal is in him’…

“‘so much of the mortal is in him’â€�. Again, I remind you: Dior was already dead. His spirit had already come to Mandos, and as had those of his parents, almost certainly departed from Arda. Mandos was therefore not merely musing upon which Kindred Dior belonged: Peredhil and EluchÃ*l [“Elu’s Heirâ€�] though he was, he was mortal, and thus in the eyes of Mandos a Man.

That the Folk of Doriath accounted Dior an Elf, or at least the rightful Heir of Elu Thingol regardless, I have no doubt: they crowned him their king without hesitation or any reported dispute. (Does that mean he had pointed ears?) But there was no way for them or anyone else to know whether or not he was mortal like his parents – for Lúthien was as mortal as Beren upon her return – because, as you point out, he died so young.

To distill this:

• Dior was the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven).
• The Sindar of Doriath never questioned that he was Elu’s proper heir and therefore their king.
• Both of his parents were mortal when he was born, therefore Dior was also mortal.
• He died young, before any sign of mortality could work on him.
• Mandos recognized him as a mortal and therefore considered him a Man because he surely departed Arda after arriving in the Halls of Mandos.
• Mandos’ recognition of this probably informed his judgment, overruled by Manwë, that Eärendil was also Man and mortal.

[AndMorgothCame.]

I'm aware of the race and fates of both Earendil and Elwing (who was 5/8 Sindar, and both were counted among the Elves), and I think I see what you're getting at but it's not convincing me. . . Can you explain why Tolkien leaves the Dior/Nimloth relationship off the list of the pairings of Elf and Man? Also, would this relationship thus make Nimloth renounce her immortal spirit, and if so, I don't ever remember reading about such an event?
These things make it hard to agree with your view on Dior, and after searching online for different info and viewpoints, there is nothing I can find that is concrete. The strongest point I suppose would be that both his parents were mortal when he was born, even though, since the Ruling of the HalfElven did not occur until after all of this, the divine ruling was not set in stone yet. Yes, his parents were re-embodied as mortals, but obviously Luthien was born otherwise.

But my last point is this: As I said before, Tolkien (numerous times) stated the three pairings of Elf and Man, and Dior and Nimloth were not on this list, and to me, that trumps all other arguments. Can you defend that?

[Alcuin]

Yes, I think I can, AndMorgothCame.

First, in the case of Elwing and Eärendil, you are ignoring the fact that their membership in one Kindred or the other was not a given: Manwë overruled Mandos, who judged that both mortal and belonged to the Second Kindred (Men), which was itself noteworthy: I am not aware that Manwë ever overruled a judgment by Mandos in any other circumstance.

Dior by definition was neither Elf nor Man, but Peredhil. I argue that Mandos considered Dior mortal Man because Dior’s spirit departed Arda. That he was mortal you yourself are inclined to concede: his father was mortal by nature, and his mother was mortal by choice acceded by divine intervention. It was a sensible judgment on the part of Mandos: Elves, after all, were bound to Arda, dying when Arda ended; only Men escaped the bounds of Arda. Beren left Arda, Lúthien left Arda, Dior left Arda: ergo, Dior must be a Man.

Lúthien was quite aware that when she chose to cleave to Beren, she chose mortality and to accept his fate in Arda as hers, sundered from the Elves. Tuor left Middle-earth with Idril, and was counted among the Eldar, the only one of the Second Kindred accorded that change. Arwen renounced her Elven nature and clove to Aragorn, and she, too, accepted mortality, finding it bitter as Elrond foresaw. Nimrodel, however, is never mentioned as having changed fate or been accorded any such consideration; but there was a “problem of the Half-elven�, as Tolkien notes in Letter 153:

…Lúthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of ‘immorality’ and become ‘mortal’ — but when Beren is slain …, Lúthien obtains a brief respite in which they both return to Middle-earth ‘alive’ – though not mingling with other people... Tuor weds Idril …; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’... Eärendil is Tuor’s son & father of Elros (first King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line.

So when Dior died and came to Mandos, the issue was formally unresolved. Again, I say that Dior must have left Arda as did his parents.

Dior was not an Elf, and he was not a Man: he Peredhil, Half-elven. Earlier, you quoted the passage in which he said, “I am the first of the Pereðil,� but could not remember the source. (By which we recognize you as a most extraordinary Hobbit in Entmoot.) Let me complete the citation: it is from Peoples of Middle-earth, the essay “Problem of Ros�:

I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the EluchÃ*l.

The context?

• Dior recognizes that being Pereðil makes him different from Men and Elves. (One can only imagine the conversations of young Dior: “Mommy, what I am, Elven like you or Mankind like Daddy?â€�)
• Dior recognizes that, although he is not an Elf – at least, not fully Elven – he is still then heir of Thingol. And the Elves of Doriath whole-heartedly agreed with his assessment and made him king regardless of the nature of his mortality.
• Tolkien was careful with words. Had there been no question about Dior’s ancestry – i.e., had he been fully Elven – he would have said, “I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); and I am also the heir of King Elwë, the EluchÃ*l.â€� There is a problem, because he says, “but I am also the heirâ€�.

Dior had thought about this more than anyone else: it concerned him quite closely: after all, it wasn’t a problem for anyone else! Not yet, at any rate.

So the Sons of Fëanor assault Doriath, Dior (who learned warfare helping his father waylay the marauding Dwarves of Nogrod returning from their attack on Doriath at the Crossings of Gelion) kills Curufin and Caranthir but is himself slain along with his wife, Nimloth.

Now, what becomes of Dior? He and Nimloth go to Mandos. What happens to Nimloth? She’s an Elf, she stays. What happens to Dior? He leaves: he has to! His parents are mortal: he himself isn’t an Elf: he’s Pereðil, and that’s a problem.

This isn’t a complete union of souls and fates in the way of Beren and Lúthien, Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen. Nimloth and Dior are separated.

So when Mandos goes to Valimar to hear the embassy of Eärendil, and the question of what to do with Eärendil and Elwing is discussed, he already knows the solution, because he’s already seen it: Dior left. As he understands the situation based on his own first-hand knowledge, the Half-elves must be Men with Elvish blood. Mandos consults with Eru, says no, and for the one and only time, overrules Mandos.

You’re right, AndMorgothCame., Dior is not a Man. But he is mortal. If he wasn’t, Mandos would not have flatly stated that Eärendil and Elwing the Half-elves were Men and so had to die even though they had come to the Undying Land. If Dior shared in the limited Elvish immortality, he would have been in the Halls of Mandos. The statement and the finality with which Mandos delivers it make no sense unless Dior is gone.

So that’s why Dior and Nimloth are not in the list. First of all, Dior isn’t a Man – my mistake for saying that in my first post without context – he’s Half-elven. He recognizes it as a problem before anyone else does because it’s his problem before it’s anyone else’s. Secondly, Dior and Nimloth are separated after death: the other three couples are not.

Finally, there were other unions of Elves and Men besides these three, even setting aside the union between Nimloth and Half-elven Dior. Imrazôr was a nobleman of Belfalas. He took the elf-maiden Mithrellas to wife; she was a companion of Nimrodel. His son Galador was the first Lord of Dol Amroth, born in the year 2004 of the Third Age. This is admittedly unusual, but it is also not in the line of the Kings of Men: it isn’t in the lineage of Elros or any of his descendents. Imrazôr died in 2076, and Mithrellas slipped away in the night when Galador was young. There is no evidence whatever that Mithrellas became mortal, and we are left to conclude rather that she left Middle-earth and went into the West. The fact that Beren and Lúthien knew they could intermarry strongly suggests that there were unions of Men and Elves before them; and the union of Imrazôr and Mithrellas suggests that there were numerous others afterwards.

There are three unions that are complete unions in which both members of the couple share the same fate. Flat-out, Tolkien writes early in “Appendix A� of RotK that

There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain…

In anticipation of your objections, I say that

1. Dior was not Edain, he was Peredhil. Mandos mistook him for a Man because he was mortal: and but for Manwë’s ruling on the Half-elves, Mandos was correct. After all, the “Elven� children of Elrond obtained the same choice as their father; but the children of Elros did not: they were all mortal without exception, and many of them seriously and famously resented it.
2. We can infer that Mithrellas must not have been an Elda. (Imrazôr was a Dúnadan, and so technically also an Adan.)

Your ball, AndMorgothCame.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The fact that Beren and Lúthien knew they could intermarry strongly suggests that there were unions of Men and Elves before them; and the union of Imrazôr and Mithrellas suggests that there were numerous others afterwards.

Finrod talked to Andreth about such intermarriage. Their conversation took place about 409, during the Long Peace (260-455), more than fifty years before Beren, who was Andreth's grand-nephew and Finrod's friend, met Luthien.

The quote is from where Finrod explains to Andreth why his brother Aegnor turned away from her and didn't declare his love for her, even though he loved her and she loved him.

... he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it.'

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME 10

Would Finrod's words to Andreth imply that such unions had - unfortunately, in his view - taken place, or do they imply that he hopes that they won't?

[Alcuin]

AndMorgothCame., the problem for Dior is that he’s not in the First Kindred or the Second. Had his mother, Lúthien, not renounced her Elvish immortality, he’d have been a real conundrum at the Halls of Mandos, where he’d probably have chosen to stay with Nimloth; but of course, had Lúthien not renounced her Elvish immortality, he’d have never been born. So he was Peredhil but mortal. As the old saying goes, rather crudely applied, he was neither fish nor fowl.

On the image (vbCode [IMG] that doesn’t work) at http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/ArwenLineage.jpg, I think all the fractions are in lowest common denominator. The condition of whether each person was Mortal is in the last two lines. The first of these last two lines is labeled “Dior is half mortal�, and the lower one “Dior is mortal�. If “Dior is mortal�, then Elwing is half-mortal and so, in that sense, “Half-elven� even though she is only one-quarter Second Kindred (it sounds funny to say “Man� regarding Elwing). Elros and Elrond are only three-eighths Mankind, but if “Dior is mortal�, then both of them, like their mother, is half-mortal.

If “Dior is mortal�, all the Peredhil except Dior are half-mortal, but only Eärendil is truly half-Elven: Dior was one-quarter Maiar. I suppose “one-quarter Maiar� plus one-quarter Elven works out to “half-Elven�, but it’s there all the same.

If the question were just, “Are you Men or Elves?â€� I think it would have been simpler. For the Valar, not to mention the people involved – and the storyline – the point is not the genetics, but the disposition of the spirits of the dead. (More properly, the un-housed: Dior, Eluréd and ElurÃ*n all died violently or before old age could catch up with them.) The decisive issue was their mortality: were they accounted among Elves or Men?

There are some loose ends here.

• I can’t find it, but I seem to recall that Mandos was either unhappy that his initial judgment regarding Eärendil was overturned, or else he foresaw the trouble that came afterwards.
• The rebellion of the Númenóreans was based upon the judgment of Manwë.
• “Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn … because of Lúthien;â€� but Lúthien wasn’t with the Elves any longer, but with Beren and the Second Kindred: was she trying to balance out the cosmic difference? Or just flighty? (That’s a pun, by the way…)
• For Elwing’s “sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Menâ€�. Eärendil was already weary of the world: he wanted to be counted among Men. He could potentially have become one of the most miserable of the Children of Ilúvatar.
• Tuor was counted among the Noldor. There is telling of the story in Lost Tales II that Ulmo hid him and none of the other Valar in Council knew where Tuor was or what had become of him. I don’t know what became of that story-line, but Ulmo was the non-conformist among the Valar. In Letter 153. Tolkien explicitly says that Tuor’s fate is not explicit; when the Elven (and Maiar?) emissaries of the Valar visit Tar-Atanamir in the middle of the Second Age to warn him against rebelling against the Valar and, by inference, against Eru and the design of Arda, he noted that his forefather Eärendil was immortal but did not mention Tuor. (Sauron Defeated, “second text of Drowning of Anadûnêâ€�, §23. The information presented is deliberately mangled by Tolkien to replicate a contaminated historical record.)

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Would Finrod's words to Andreth imply that such unions had - unfortunately, in his view - taken place, or do they imply that he hopes that they won't?

I think he’s allowing that some unions between Silvan Elves and Men have taken place, but saying that the Eldar will not intermarry with Men without “some high purpose of Doom.�

It’s all but certain that Elves did not at first recognize Men as mortals, nor did Men understand that Elves were not. The implication is that the “Three Unions of Elves and Men� are recitations of the three unions of Elves and Men between the royal houses of the Elves and the chieftains (royal houses) of the Edain. All the other intermarriages (such as Imrazôr and Mithrellas, which was very late in the history of Middle-earth) were ignored. It might be important in this context that there was no union between the Eldar and the Second House of the Edain, who had no proper hereditary chieftain: i.e., no hereditary “king.�

I think Finrod was also telling Andrath that Aegnor would never marry anyone else because he loved her. To me it’s a deeply moving story, foreshadowing in tone the “Tale of Aragorn and Arwen�.

[Galin]

Incidentally Mithrellas was not considered an Elda -- according to The Lord of the Rings at least, as the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien were 'East-elves' and technically not Eldar or 'West-elves'.

In The History Of Galadriel And Celeborn it's noted that she is of the lesser Silvan race '(and not of the High Elves or the Grey)' which actually fits well enough with already published text, given that the Grey-elves are also West-elves or Eldar.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Dior is too goodlooking to be a mortal!

Your ball, Alcuin.

[AndMorgothCame.]

Just kidding, but I now must agree. I hadn't read those deeper details of Letters, so the Manwe/Mandos judgements were news to me. Thanks for the info and the time to type all that out.

I always liked Dior, thinking he was an Elf, but now that he was mortal, I must admit it's a bit of a bummer.

Another thing I was thinking, Elured and Elurin, if they were Elves, would have survived a lot easier out in the wild, not needing much food and sleep, unlike mortals.

On a side note, I was looking at your spreadsheet a few posts back and you have Elwing as 4/32 Maiar, 20/32 Elvish and 8/32 mortal, are you sure she wouldn't be 5/32 Maiar and 7/32 Mortal?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Eldar includes those of the Teleri that started and quit the great journey, the Nandor as well as the Sindar. The Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and of Lorien included many Nandor as well as Avari. The Nandor settled these two areas befor the Avari arrieved there. I am not sure, but I believe the largest component of Lorien's population was Nandor.
The Nandor (excepting the Laequendi) were not 'Belerianderized' and were culturally very similar to the Avari, and a considared Silvan like the Avari, yet they still count as people of the Great journey.